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Fat Loss discussion on Cutting nitpicks, within the Bodybuilding Forum; 1) If you're serious about fat loss, I'd first examine how hard using bands are on your body (accomodating resistance). ...


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Old 08-18-2009, 01:34 PM   #21
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1) If you're serious about fat loss, I'd first examine how hard using bands are on your body (accomodating resistance). Get rid of them.

2) You cannot serve two masters. You're not going to be gaining a lot of strength on a deficit. No two ways about it. If you love speed work, keep it. But what I'd like to see is HEAVY LIFTING. That's the only surefire way to maintain your muscle mass. I would consider doing a workup at the tail end of your speed sets. So bench would be 8 sets of 3's w/ 45%, then ramp up to around 80%. Box squats around 5 sets, then ramp up to a heavy double. Of course this would only be applicable if you're hitting the gym 3 days a week and rotating two ME, two DE days.

3) Lots of volume there as well. If you can recover from it, then by all means. I personally love the Wendler Triumvirate mentality of doing the main exercises, then pick two supplementals that hammer your weaknesses done deal.

Ex.

Quote:
Aug 11th – Max effort lower
Platform deadlifts: work up to a heavy triple
Box squat w/ bands: work up to heavy triple
Front Squat: 3x8
BB Lunges: 2x12
Pullups: 3x15
Leg raises: 3x12
ME lift - Either squat or pull
Supplemental - Gluteham Raise 3-5 sets
Supplemental - Leg Raises 3-5 sets w/ a DB between your feet.
GPP - Sled drag or Prowler Push (You can get either from my friend Scott who owns Strength & Power over at ironaddicts custom built).

Shouldn't take you more than 30 minutes to get through the gym stuff, heavy slag weight, then hit the GPP.

Kinda seems as though you read through the Westside articles, saw a ton of good stuff, then put it all into a training day. You must remember the GOAL you have. You're not trying to gain muscle.

You're trying to keep calories as high as possible while keeping the intensity as high as you can handle. By keeping calories high, you're going to rely on CARDIO to create your deficit. That's the number one key to maintaining strength and muscle mass while working on fat loss. I'd rather see someone add in cardio, then increase duration throughout the week BEFORE lowering cals.

4) Carbs - I've been dropping bodyfat like it's hot and I'm getting away with 250 grams on training days. Guess how I do it? It's all about WHEN you're getting those carbs. I wake up and lift, so I put a 1/4 gallon of water w/ 2-3 scoops waxy maize, 10 scoops BCAA's and consume it before I workout, during, and finish it by the time I'm done working with the foam roller postworkout. I'll post a lot of studies by Alan Aragon regarding the importance of CHO + Aminos vs. just aminos alone. Afterwards, a whole food meal 30 minutes later - Something as simple as 1-2 sweet potatoes (or yams), your choice of lean meat, and a good deal of greens. From there I'm back on my schedule of lean meat, healthy fats (avocado, EVOO, canola oil, almond butter, ect), and tons of greens (broccoli, green beans, spinnach, ect).

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Old 08-18-2009, 02:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cradler View Post
The front squat isn't a usual thing - normally that'd be an RDL, reverse hyper, or occasionally a good morning. Same goes for the upper ones - usually that's weighted pullups, facepulls, and usually a shoulder press variant. I should have been more clear, I just picked the last three things in my log.

What is anti-rotation ab training?

pallof press...landmines....youtube 'em
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:32 AM   #23
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Hey Darkhorse, I really appreciate the reply - lot of detail there. A solid amount of it went over my head, so I apologize if I ask any glaringly stupid questions

I'd never heard that about bands. Is it that they're harder on your joints? Also, what would you recommend for speed work in their absence? Iíve relied heavily on the bands up to now and other than similar means of contrast (chains etc.) Iím not really sure what Iíd use.

I really like both of the next two things you mention Ė speed sets followed by a workup, and the Wendler Triumvirate, to borrow your phrase. I do tend to have a lot of exercises in my workouts; the idea was basically to make sure I hit all my weak spots etc., and Iíve always felt like I recovered pretty well at least generally. Letís say in future I were to cut down on a few of the somewhat redundant accessory exercises Ė would you think Iíd be able to get away with slightly more volume (another set, whatever) on the main three exercises of that day? Iíve been working in a 1-3 rep range for my max work for a while and was considering rotating in some slightly higher (5s or so) work.

About calories/carbs etc. Ė how many cals do you take in daily? Earlier this thread 11-12 cals per lb. bodyweight was given as an example for fatloss. What would you recommend, a similar number or something different? Do you actually have a set number of calories throughout the day or just time the calories you do have correctly? I eat the vast majority of my carbs in the morning, then for the rest of the day itís the same as what you said Ė lean meat, healthy fats, greens. Later (once wrestling season starts) practice runs 4-6; I was planning on simply spreading out my carbs until 4, have a postworkout meal afterwards, then stick to the above after 6. Iím assuming practice will be hard enough that Iíll lose fat there anyway even if my carbs are more spread out.

Thanks a lot Darkhorse!!
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Old 08-19-2009, 03:38 PM   #24
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Also, what would you recommend for speed work in their absence? Iíve relied heavily on the bands up to now and other than similar means of contrast (chains etc.) Iím not really sure what Iíd use.
Why do YOU think you need accomodating resistance? It's not necessary, and at some point it does help. I used to rotate bands or chains in every so often.

Quote:
I do tend to have a lot of exercises in my workouts; the idea was basically to make sure I hit all my weak spots etc.,
If you really hammer the main lifts, then everything gets worked. "Accessory" means fine tune in my opinion. If your hammies are weak for example, then hit gluteham raises heavy one day, light the other. You don't need mulitple exercises in other words.

Quote:
Letís say in future I were to cut down on a few of the somewhat redundant accessory exercises Ė would you think Iíd be able to get away with slightly more volume (another set, whatever) on the main three exercises of that day?
Again, why the need for a lot of volume in the first place? Wendler, although I admit is usually running some sort of test, gets away with 2-3 accessory exercises done deal. My view is that YOU'RE IN FAT LOSS MODE. There's two things you can do: Use volume and really lower the intensity a great deal, OR hit 2 or 3 supplemental or accessory lifts hard and go home.

Quote:
Iíve been working in a 1-3 rep range for my max work for a while and was considering rotating in some slightly higher (5s or so) work.
You could keep a max effort exercise for three week cycles if you wanted. At your level, you don't need rotated weekly lifts. You could examine doing a 5'er, a 3'er, then a 1 RM.. Or something like the 5/3/1 (3x5, 3x3, 5/3/1, deload). Nothing's set in stone.

FAT LOSS = Working on heavy lifting while on a deficit. If you need to burn cals, do some low intensity cardio vs. lots of volume.

Shit, you don't even have to do westide if you didn't want to. Think outside the box. Pick a few compounds and rotate intensity for a block. Meaning week one is medium (3 x 3), second week is light (3 x 5), third is max effort (1 x 3), then deload. Just throwing options out there.

Gotta run!
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Old 08-19-2009, 06:07 PM   #25
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About calories/carbs etc. Ė how many cals do you take in daily? Earlier this thread 11-12 cals per lb. bodyweight was given as an example for fatloss. What would you recommend, a similar number or something different?
I don't ever look at things that myopic. There is absolutely nothing set in stone. And I hate to see "rules".

Fat loss = The Law of Addition and Subtraction.

How do you follow the Law?

1) Write down exactly what you have been doing training wise and diet wise for one month without deviation. Doesn't matter if you were focused on gaining mass, ect.

2) USE the Law to work fat loss in your favor. That doesn't mean ditching everything for something else. It means forgetting about your calories for now, and looking at the structure of your meals.

3) Once your macros are right for your body type (ie. insulin resistance would mean less carbs, more healthy fats), THEN you look at your CARDIO.

Many trainees fuck up here because they think you HAVE to automatically reduce your calories which IME only works against you. The goal here is strength first which maintains muscle mass, while losing fat.

So, meals are structured, nothing changes with training for now, and you start adding in 30 minutes of low intensity cardio on every off day.

What does that do? Keeps you strong, elliminates muscle wasting, and most importantly, keeps motivation high since you're not worrying about eating less.

**Fat loss stalls**

Again, why not increase the duration of cardio to 45 minutes on every off day, while maintaining cals for strength/mass?

**Fat loss stalls**

Now's the time to lower your cals. Or, re-examine your diet structure. If the first three meals each day is mostly low gi carbs and protein, try subtracting (using the Law) some of the carb meals on NON training days in favor of healthy fats.

**Doesn't work**

Reduce your cals by 250.

Et cetera. Of course everyone is different. And you have to apply the Law to your bodytype. Obviously, it also depends on what you're currently doing as well. Additionally, someone who is 10% would probably need more energy systems training to get the remainder off vs. someone else who's 15%. This is to get you thinking clearly. I can't personalize any advice for you since I don't know anything about you. Just take what I said and put yourself on the right path -> Losing at an acceptable pace, but never at the expense of strength.
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Old 08-20-2009, 08:04 PM   #26
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Wow - two great posts, thanks DH. Most of it I read and pretty much got straightaway, I just wanted to ask one more thing.

I've heard you say, here and elsewhere, that you like low intensity cardio for fatloss. Why is this? I've always heard, get your heart rate up to X, interval training, all this other stuff based on high intensity, same stuff we all hear I'm sure... does low intensity work tend to spare your muscles more, as in preventing you from losing strength? Is it a fatigue management thing? That's the one thing I was curious about in your posts... other than that, thanks a ton, I have some changes to make lol.
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Old 08-20-2009, 08:29 PM   #27
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Well you certainly won't need anything using energy system training like HIIT unless you've already dieted down significantly. There's been so many people who have relied on low intensity steady state during their off days and got shredded that it's rediculous. It's simply not needed. Especially IF you're lifting as heavy as possible. I'll go on the treadmill at a 3.5 speed and a 3.5 incline for 45 minutes done deal. A good rule of thumb is a heartrate of 130-140 bpm. You're just burning calories here.

Now, if your fatloss starts to slow on progress, or you feel there's some benefit to using HIIT, then by all means. But if that's the case, you're going to have to have more carbs in your day to day diet vs. low carb or keto since the high intensity interval training will be running off of carbs for energy.

So you ask yourself - As I'm continually training as heavy as possible, what will enable me to make the most consistant strength gains while in fat loss mode? Almost always to least invasive approach always wins. There's a reason why we don't do HIIT while DC training - Ever.

I wrote an article at IA's forum:

http://ironaddicts.com/forums/showth...178#post276178
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Old 08-21-2009, 06:17 AM   #28
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Great article, thanks one more time DH
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