Go Back   Bodybuilding Forum - Bodybuilding.net > Bodybuilding Forum > Fat Loss

How to Cut

Fat Loss discussion on How to Cut, within the Bodybuilding Forum; Here is some stuff in support of what 0311 is saying that I posted a while back. Personally I've never ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-25-2008, 10:03 AM   #31
EricT
Rank: Heavyweight
Experience: 7-10 Years
 
EricT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Country:

Gender:
Default

Here is some stuff in support of what 0311 is saying that I posted a while back. Personally I've never believed this stuff about separating macros.

Separating Macronutreints: Now carbs with fat/protein and no fat with protein/carbs and all that happy horseshit

J Beaty: What are your thoughts on the reemergence of the macronutrient food combining theory where carbs shouldn't be mixed with protein/fat meals and fat shouldn't be mixed with protein/carb meals?

L Norton: This is a rather simplistic way of looking at nutrition and focuses mainly on insulin rather than looking at the whole picture. While it probably isn't
a good idea to have a really high carb meal with a really high fat meal, there's nothing wrong with having moderate amounts of both.

W Brink: Like many theories, it comes around every few years or decades and gets people all worked up over their food. Problem is, it's no more true today than it was when the book “Fit for Life” by Harvey and Marilyn Diamond came out. The theory had no scientific support then and it has none now. Humans have been combining fats, carbs, and proteins quite successfully for eons, and as omnivores, are perfectly capable of digesting mixed meals.

J Hale: You are probably referring to the theory that assumes insulin and blood levels of fat should never be raised at the same time. This theory assumes that insulin is the key contributor to obesity. There are a few things wrong with this line of thought. One of the key problems is not recognizing something called Acylation Stimulating Protein. Acylation stimulating protein (ASP) is a hormone produced by adipocytes and is of importance for the storage of energy as fat. The consumption of dietary fat alone can increase fat storage. Dietary fat affects fat cell metabolism with NO INCREASE in insulin. Some studies have indicated dietary fat loading found a decrease in HSL (hormone sensitive lipase) and an activation of fat storage despite no increase in insulin. The key reason was activation of acylation stimulating protein (ASP) which is activated by the presence of chylomicrons (basically packaged triglycerides that are found in the bloodstream after the meal). ASP increases glucose uptake into the fat cell, increases insulin release from the pancreas and has been described as 'the most potent stimulator of triglyceride storage' in the fat cells by numerous scientists. Another problem with this line of thought is some proteins cause substantial elevations in insulin. Minimal levels of insulin affect fat cell metabolism. Basal levels can decrease lipolysis by 50%. Another consideration is most bodybuilders are eating every 2-3 hrs so nutrients are still absorbing from previous meals; therefore previous meals interact with the blood levels of nutrients of the present meal.

A study conducted by Golay and colleagues compared a diet with equal macronutrient content and substrate percentages; that differed only in how the substrates were consumed (mixed diet vs. food combining). The results were no difference in weight loss. Here are the exact results reported by the researchers:

“Results: There was no significant difference in the amount of weight loss in response to dissociated (6.2 +/- 0.6 kg) or balanced (7.5 +/- 0.4 kg) diets. Furthermore, significant decreases in total body fat and waist-to-hip circumference ratio were seen in both groups, and the magnitude of the changes did not vary as a function of the diet composition. Fasting plasma glucose, insulin, total cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations decreased significantly and similarly in patients receiving both diets. Both systolic and diastolic blood pressure values decreased significantly in patients eating balanced diets. The results of this study show that both diets achieved similar weight loss. Total fat weight loss was higher in balanced diets, although differences did not reach statistical significance. Total lean body mass was identically spared in both groups. CONCLUSION: In summary, at identical energy intake and similar substrate composition, the dissociated (or 'food combining') diet did not bring any additional loss in weight and body fat”. Actually looks like a slight increase in fat loss with mixed diet (balanced diet).

We have tons of anecdotal evidence that denies the need for food combining. We have evolved on a mixed diet. With all of that said, food combining may be beneficial regarding calorie control. Once you eliminate an entire macronutrient from a meal, this can go a long way in decreasing total caloric intake. If this is what you need to do to control energy intake, feel free to do so.

A Aragon: I think that the “P+C & P+F = okay but avoid C+F” principle is idiotic when applied across the board without any contingencies or attention to individual situations. For example, is someone is low-carbing for whatever reason you choose (pathological carbophobia included), they might be done with their carb intake by early afternoon, and their meal construction for the rest of the day is gonna be primarily P+F by sheer default. In the latter scenario, I can see the principle being legit.

However, when issued blanketly, it’s usually based upon the wacky idea that you don’t want fat floating around systemically when your insulin levels are high, because this will magically shift your net adipose balance in the positive. That’s false for a number of reasons. First of all, the insulin response generated by CHO + fat generally depends upon the degree of the fat’s saturation. Unsaturated fats tend to either lower insulin response of the co-ingested carbs, or not affect insulin response at all. Co-ingested sat fat, on the other hand, tends to raise insulin response, and can do so in a synergistic fashion. But then the question becomes, so what? Others have mentioned the more direct role ASP has in TG synthesis, and indeed, insulin is more of a multi-tasking anabolic/anticatabolic agent in comparison to ASP, which seems to exist solely to pump up the adipocytes. And of course the kicker is that ASP can do its TG-synthesizing magic in the sheer absence of insulin.

And then there’s energy balance… In a negative energy balance, insulinogenesis is wonderful thing, as long as the training stimulus & nutrition is there to work in concert with it to preserve LBM. In the condition of a positive energy balance, trainees in general are gonna have a lot more carbs to throw around, so this makes the whole separation thing even more dicey. Which meals should be carb-free or fat-free in order to pull of this magic separation tactic, and why? The logical answers to this question simply don’t exist. If you were to actually adhere to the mechanics of separation, you’d actually be hard-pressed to maintain a stable insulin profile – which is ironic, since the control of insulin is what “separatists” are aiming for. Regardless of all the previous points, the fundamental short sight is that digestion/absorption of meals overlap each other when meal frequency is as high as it should be. Therefore, attempting strict separation of the macros = kidding yourself. Not to mention, most foods in nature are a combo of all the macros to begin with.

EricT's Sig:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
or
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
EricT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2008, 07:11 AM   #32
bigjeffy
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1

Default pwo shake carbs?

I generally consume 50g of whey protien after workouts. I read you recommend twice that many carbs as dextrose and maltodextin. Can you give me some examples of carb items to add to the the shake.
I would appreciate it! Also I see you aren't partial to milk, but for breakfast with some kashi cereal on workout days, would this be o.k. for cutting, would like your opinion.
Thanx,
Jeff
bigjeffy is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2008, 01:32 AM   #33
Darkhorse
Rank: Light Heavyweight
Experience: 7-10 Years
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 4,174
Country:

Gender:
Send a message via Yahoo to Darkhorse
Default

Seperating the P + F and P + C BULLSHIT cont....

From Lyle Macdonald

Quote:
Yeah, that's my feeling, it's at best a food control thing. If you can only eat carbs for a few meals/day and are limited to lwo GI, that limits how many carbs you can eat/day. Same with fat. Which limits calories. When you enforce eating a ton of protein at each meal (and first, which tends to blunt appetite), people eat even less. But they *feel* like they are eating a ton. Durrr.....

One of the DC fanatics came on the board a while back a nd mentioned that DC instituted the no carbs after X pm cutoff so that you don't get dillholes playing the "I'm bulking, I need a gallon of ice cream at bedtime" game. yeah, great. But at least be honest abut why you're doing it. Or tell people to get some freaking discipline.

You don't have to make up bogus physiology to get people to do this kind of stuff IMO

Lyle
Quote:
Frankly, I think food combining voodoo crap based on a piss-poor understanding of basic human physiology. The original version was based on a mistaken understanding of human digestino, the new version on a 10 year old model of calorie storage in fat cells.

I think Lemmon is a monkey spanker.

17 lbs in one month of muscle? I call bullshit. Even with steroids, you couldn't get that much.

I think about the only advantage of the whole thing might be that it keeps people from turning into fat pigs when they bulk. When you make it so taht people can't eat starches at every meal or fat at every meal, they will tend to eat less than if you alow all foods at all meals. This is especially true for people who are bad at controlling their calories or who don't want to track portions. Food combining probably acts as a food intake control strategy.

The Doggcrapp strategy of disalowing carbs at night seems to serve taht main goal, keeps fat asses from eating a pint of ice cream at bedtime and wondering why they got fat.

Failing all of that, try it both ways for a couple of months, see what happens.
Quote:
a. don't waste your time arguing with morons
b. of course they are still at a surplus, no shit. but they are not at nearly the surplus that they think
c. dietary fat doesn't need insulin to affect fat cell metabolism; neither does eating fat stimulate it's own oxidation. Not to menion that the time course of insulin and dietary fat hitting the bloodstream are totally different, not to mention a bunch of other stuff.

Here, you want to **** with them point out that, ingested dietary fat really hits the fat cells around the 2-3 hours mark. Just about the time that you're raising insulin with the next P+C meal

Lyle
Quote:
Old version: some gibberish about how carbs digest in alkaline and protein/fat in an acid environment. Hence eating both can't possibly digest properly. This is based on a totally incorrect understanding of digestive physiology. Carb digestion begins in the mouth via amylase (aka salviary ptalin) which is inactivated in the gut when the acid hits it. Hence, the food combining twits concluded carbs require basic environment. Which is true, in the mouth. But not in the gut. The stomach is never basic, it's either acidic or really freaking acidic. and carbs digest just fine which is why, as Aaron pointed out, you don't shit yourself silly every time you eat a meal of carbs/protein or whatver mixture they don't agree with. But they ran from the basic premise and reached a totally screwed up conclusion. They also seem to have trouble explaining stuff like milk and beans, both of which are digested (and yes, we produce gas from beans, this is because specific sugars called raffinose and stachyose are not digested by humans but we still get digestible carbs and protein from them) by humans. Their usual explanation is some gibberish about how those are naturally occurring foods and that's ok, but magically the body can tell when you eat a piece of meat and an apple or whatever. Reminds me of the aspartame tards who argue taht synthetic aspartame is evil but the naturally occurring stuff in fruits isn't bcause of a magical (but undiscovered) compound in fruits that prevents the formation of formaldehyde.

Tangent: some food combiners are adamant that one should eat fruit separate from everythign else. I have never found any suggestion of their rationale for this.

New version, based on a model where insulin is the primary player in fat storage. Premise being that insulin stores fat, hence avoid insulin and fat in the bloodstream at the same time and you won't get fat. So you separate carb and fat in meals. You can eat protein/carb or protein/fat.

Problems with this model:

1. Protein raises insulin
2. It takes only miniscule amounts of insulin to affect fat cell metabolism. Even fasting levels will inhibit lipolysis by 50% and it takes only a very small increase to affect things beyond that.
3. Insulin isn't even nearly the entirety of the picture. Well, it was 10+ years ago, but it's not now. Two studies have shown that fat ingestion by itself affects fat cell metabolism with no increase in insulin: you get an inhibition of HSL (just like insulin does) and other effects. The most likely player is a molecule called acylation stimulation protein (ASP, aka complement 3 protein or some crap, I wish scientists would come up with one name for this stuff). ASP is complex but has been described for at least 2 decades as the most potent stimulus for triglyceride synthesis in fat cells. ASP activates glucose uptake into the cell, activates triglyceride synthesis, increasing insulin release from the pancreas. It appears to be activated by a protein on the surface of the chylomicron (the packaged up dietary triglyceride). you're reading that right: fat stimulates it's own storage without a need for insulin.

Tangential note: the big focus in fat storage has always been on LPL (lipoprotien lipase) which is activated by insulin (it's probably also activated by ASP). It was always thought that LPL was the key player in fat storage except that it's not. Mice bred without LPL but with ASP get fat just fine, mice bred without ASP without LPL do not. LPL's primarily role is to break fatty acids out of the chylomicron, ASP is the key player in fat storage.

Now, one study suggested that insulin + ASP activation lead to greater fatty acid trapping than either and they tested this by using either a high fat or high carb meal or a mix of the two. A huge problem I have with the study, the mixed meal was simply the high fat + high carb meal put together; that is it had twice the calories (ok, it had the sum of the other meals, it may not have been double exactly) of either individual meal. It's like saying that you either ate 50 grams of fat, 125 grams of carbs or a meal of 50 grams of fat and 125 grams of carbs; and the third meal made you store more fat. Well no kidding, it was double the calories. Of course you'd expect more fat storage under those conditions.

To control for this, they should have made the meals isocaloric and tested either high-fat, high-carb or a mixture with the caloric content of each meal identical (i.e. the third meal would have half as much fat and carbs).

Of course, as I've mentioned, I think this is probably the reason that food combining 'works', it forces people to control calories. Most of the really bad stuff we eat tends to be high sugar and high fat. If you make it so that people can only eat one or the other at a given meal, guess what happens? They eat less. As well, if you look at a 6 meal/day plan, if you can only eat fat at three meals, and only eat concentrated starches at 3 meals, and you're not controlling calories/food intake, odds are you will end up eating less than if you can eat fat/starches at all meals.

A final note, John Berardi, who really popularized teh above idea made an initially huge deal out of not eating digestible carbs with protein/fat meals. IN a more recent article, he now allows low gi/unrefined carbs like potatoes and beans and stuff. So his 'food combining/massive eating plan' now allows meals that contain protein/veggies/unrefined carbs/fat. So cutting edge. It makes me wonder what kinds of carbs he thought people were eating before that.

Lyle
Darkhorse is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2008, 01:48 AM   #34
spanky06
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 5

Default

Dr X,

I'm preparing for my first natural bodybuilding contest at a Musclemania event. It's not my first show ever but might as well be since I last competed in 1993. So because I want to be ripped I started early...16 weeks out. Really the reason is I had substantial amount of fat around my abs. So right now I'm a full 10 weeks out. I orginally weighed 222lbs at 16 weeks out. Six weeks later I'm at 210lbs. I feel great and strong. I'm still lifting heavy and actually I've increased my poundages for the same reps. I've definitely lost fat but my problem area will be my lower abs. At this point I'm just starting to see the lines of my abs. Every other body part is starting to get veiny and tight. Below is my diet plan. Please let me know what you think of it and am I on the right track to getting ripped.

1st meal
5 egg whites w/turkey or lean beef
1 whey protein shake with half banana

Workout includes 45 minutes of cardio

2nd meal
5 egg whites w/turkey or lean beef
1 whey protein shake with half banana

3rd meal
1 whey protein shake w/peanut butter
1 1/2 cup of oatmeal

4th meal
1 chicken breast or fillet of fish (tilipia)
broccoli

5th meal
1 chicken breast or fillet of fish (tilipia)
1 yam

6th meal
1 1 whey protein shake w/peanut butter
1 1/2 cup of oatmeal

Keep in mind I'm doing 45 minutes of cardio a day. I really want to get ripped for this show. Thanks for your thoughts. If anyone else would like to comment please do. Thanks gang.
spanky06 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2008, 05:13 AM   #35
TALO
Rank: Light Heavyweight
Experience: 5-7 Years
 
TALO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Alberta , Canada
Posts: 3,076
Country:

Gender:
Default

Cutting out the whey may help you. Atleast cut it down, it looks like your taking in more fluid than food.
TALO is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2008, 05:56 PM   #36
spanky06
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 5

Default

Thanks Talo. I'll give that a try. What do you think about the solids I'm taking in and the amount of cardio?
spanky06 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2008, 06:21 PM   #37
EricT
Rank: Heavyweight
Experience: 7-10 Years
 
EricT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Country:

Gender:
Default

Carbs and Fat: Friends After All? (Leigh Peele's Blog)
EricT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 08-10-2009, 05:53 AM   #38
fakii
Rank: New Member
Experience: > 1 Year
 
fakii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Tabuk, Saudi Arabia
Posts: 47
Country:

Gender:
Send a message via MSN to fakii Send a message via Yahoo to fakii
Default

thanks buddy .... nice information..... it'll help me out alot ..nice post keep up the good work. GOD bless U
fakii is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 10:03 AM   #39
EricT
Rank: Heavyweight
Experience: 7-10 Years
 
EricT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Country:

Gender:
Default

True but a nonsequitur.
EricT is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Old 04-06-2010, 07:21 PM   #40
cmatthew4
Rank: Member
Experience: 1-2 Years
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: windsor ont, canada
Posts: 61
Country:

Gender:
Default

i could never start my day without a BIG FAT glass of MILK... dont care what any one says LOL that would be crazy! lol the only reason i ever cut back (slightly) is because i found out if you drink to much of it it will actualy weaken you bones instead of making them stronger and when i had to start buying my own i can easily go through 3 litres in 2 days haha
cmatthew4 is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!Share on Facebook
Reply With Quote
Reply

  Bodybuilding Forum - Bodybuilding.net > Bodybuilding Forum > Fat Loss


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.