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Member Photos discussion on Pictures + A Ton of Questions, within the Members Section; Tidus, how far do you think you need to cut down before you begin building muscle? If you plan on ...


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Old 10-19-2007, 01:21 PM   #11
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Tidus, how far do you think you need to cut down before you begin building muscle? If you plan on taking it into the single digits you will be at a point where you can't gain muscle very well because your bf% is too low. At that point trying to get some lean mass without gaining any fat will just frustrate you after a certain point. So you'll HAVE to gain fat. Which will again frustrate you. Then, though, you have CUT your bf so low that your body is PRIMED to do what it has always done....put on fat. So while you try to gain just enough fat to realize some lean mass gains you will have a hard time controlling it since your body is in that fat gain mode.

Right now it looks like most of your fat is in your gut. So if you cut too much more to get rid of the gut the reality may be that you have reached too low a bf%...and you start that pendulum rocking I just described. That is what I was trying to tell you before.

Do not get sucked into this bulking/cutting mentality. For someone who has had problems with lots of fat that is a recipe for frustration. Slow and steady wins the race. Unless you want to check out the anobolic section...

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:45 PM   #12
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Wow, that put things into perspective. Hmph, but right now, wouldn't you say I'm in the mid teens - in respect to body fat %?

I think if I hit the lower double digits, I'd see abs and lose the gut and, I really want abs before my Gyne surgery (Mar. 26th, 2008)

I was under the impression I could attain that abs physique and maintain it for a while before I start bulking. Once I start bulking, I'd do a super-clean bulk. I'd do it slowly, so I don't get frustrated with fat levels.

Thing is, the abs thing is a mental block I've developed. A kind of goal I've set for myself. I think I'm really close to over-coming it, too. Plus, I wouldn't be abandoning weight training and I'd still be taking protein and glutamine to make sure I don't lose any muscle.

Eric and everyone else, if I posted a program I plan to start this Monday, would you mind taking a look at it and critiquing it?
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:47 PM   #13
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Tidus, absolutely post that routine. Lots of people post routines up here, me and probably plenty of others would love to take a look at it.
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:12 PM   #14
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Thanks Cradler. For cardio, I'll be going about three or four times a week. Twice on those days.

So it would look something like this.

Monday / Wednesday / Friday and Saturday Cardio -: Before school / around 30 minutes of cardio at 6:30 in the morning on an empty stomach. Later on, I'd go 45 minutes in the PM. After 4pm.

The weight training program is called PRRS. It's an abbreviated form of Power / Rep-Range and Shock. I found it at bodybuilding.com forums, everyone using it has declared it effective, I thought I'd give it a try, since I've barley stuck to a program before, and this one seems diverse enough to keep my interest.

Here goes...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weight Lifting Program
Week 1 is working on Power.

CHEST
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Bench Press 3 4-6 4/0/X 5 min
Incline Press 3 4-6 4/0/X 5 min
Weighted Dip 2 4-6 4/0/X 5 min


BACK
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Weighted WG Pull-up 3 4-6 4/0/X 5 min
Underhand Grip Bent Row 3 4-6 3/0/X 5 min
CG Seated Cable Row 2 4-6 3/0/X 4 min

SHOULDERS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Military Press 3 4-6 4/0/X 5 min
WG Barbell Upright Row 2 4-6 3/0/X 5 min
Bent Lateral 2 4-6 2/0/X 4 min

BICEPS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Barbell Curl 2 4-6 4/0/X 4 min
Preacher Curl 2 4-6 4/0/X 4 min
Alternating Dumbbell Curl 2 4-6 3/0/X 4 min

TRICEPS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
CG Bench Press 3 4-6 4/0/X 4 min
Lying Extension 2 4-6 3/0/X 4 min
Dumbbell Overhead Extension 2 4-6 4/0/X 4 min

QUADS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Bar Squat 3 4-6 4/0/X 5 min
Leg Press 3 4-6 4/0/X 5 min
Leg Extension 2 4-6 4/0/X 4 min

HAMSTRINGS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Lying Leg Curl 2 4-6 4/0/X 4 min
Stiff-Leg Deadlift 3 4-6 4/0/1 5 min
Single Leg Curl 2 4-6 4/0/X 4 min

TRAPEZIUS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Barbell Shrug 2 4-6 2/0/X 4 min
CG Barbell Upright Row 2 4-6 3/0/X 4 min

LOWER BACK
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Dead Lift 3 4-6 3/1/X 5 min
Good Mornings 2 4-6 4/0/X 5 min

FOREARMS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Barbell Wrist Curl 2 4-6 2/0/X 3 min
Barbell Reverse Curl 2 4-6 4/0/X 4 min

CALVES
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Calf Press 3 4-6 3/1/X 3 min
Seated Calf Raise 2 4-6 3/1/X 3 min

ABDOMINALS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Weighted Incline Sit-up 3 6-8* 4/0/2 3 min
Weighted Hanging Straight Leg Raise 2 6-8* 3/0/1 3 min
*I do not believe in going as low as 4-6 reps when it comes to abdominal training. This would require too much resistance, which could cause injury. 6-8 reps is about as low as I feel any trainee should go.

Week 2 is Rep Range.

CHEST
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Incline Press 3 7-9 2/1/2 3 min
Smith Machine Press to Neck 3 10-12 2/1/2 3 min
Cable Crossover 2 13-15 2/1/2/1 2min

BACK
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
WG T-Bar Row 3 7-9 2/1/2 3 min
Underhand Grip Pull Down 3 10-12 2/1/2/1 2 min
Unilateral Seated Cable Row 2 13-15 2/1/2/1 2 min

SHOULDERS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Seated Dumbbell Press 3 7-9 2/1/2 3 min
Side Lateral Raise 2 10-12 2/0/2 2 min
Unilateral Cable Bent Lateral 2 13-15 2/0/2/1 2 min

BICEPS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Incline Dumbbell Curl 2 7-9 2/1/2 3 min
Low Cable Curl 2 10-12 2/1/2/1 2 min
Concentration Curl 2 13-15 2/1/2/1 2 min

TRICEPS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Weighted Dips 3 7-9 2/0/2 3 min
Rope Press Down 2 10-12 2/0/2/1 2 min
Dumbbell Kick Back 2 13-15 2/0/2/1 2 min

QUADS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Hack Squat 3 7-9 2/1/2 3 min
Leg Extension 3 10-12 2/0/2/1 2 min
Walking Lunge 2 13-15 (per leg) 2/0/2 3 min

HAMSTRINGS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Seated Leg Curl 2 7-9 2/0/2/1 3 min
Stiff-Leg Dead Lift 3 10-12 2/1/2 3 min
Unilateral Lying Leg Curl 2 13-15 2/1/2/1 2 min

TRAPEZIUS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Dumbbell Shrug 2 1 X 7-9, 1 X 10-12 2/1/2/1 2 min
Behind Back Barbell Shrug 2 1 X 10-12, 1 X 13-15 2/0/2/1 2 min

LOWER BACK
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Partial Rack Dead Lift 3 2 X 7-9, 1 X 10-12 2/1/1 3 min
Back Extension 2 13-15 2/1/2/1 2 min

FOREARMS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Barbell Reverse Wrist Curl 2 1 X 7-9, 1 X 10-12 2/0/1/1 2 min
Behind Back Barbell Wrist Curl 2 1 X 10-12, 1 X 13-15 1/0/1/1 2 min

CALVES
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Standing Calf Raise 3 1 X 7-9, 2 X 10-12 2/1/2/1 2 min
Seated Calf Raise 2 13-15 2/1/2/1 2 min


ABDOMINALS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Cable Crunch 2 7-9 2/0/2/1 2 min
Hanging Knee Raise 2 10-12 2/1/1 2 min
Side Crunch 1 13-15 (each side) 2/0/1/1 2 min

Week 3 is Shock.

CHEST
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Incline Flye & Bench Press 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Superset: Smith Machine Incline Press & Dumbbell Pullover 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 CMR
Dropset: Pec Deck Machine 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR

BACK
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Straight Arm Pull Down & WG Bent Row 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CR)
Superset: CG T-Bar Row & Underhand Grip Pull Down 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 CMR
Dropset: Medium Parallel Grip Seated Cable Row 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR

SHOULDERS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Seated Bent Lateral & Arnold Dumbbell Press 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Superset: WG Barbell Upright Row & Side Lateral Raise 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 CMR
Dropset: Dumbbell Front Raise 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR


BICEPS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Incline Dumbbell Curl & Preacher Curl 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Superset: Overhead Cable Curl & Barbell Curl 1 8-10 each 1/0/1 CMR
Dropset: Concentration Curl 1 10-12, drop, 4-6 1/0/1 CMR

TRICEPS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: V-Bar Press Down & Dips Between Benches 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Superset: Incline EZ-Bar Overhead Extension & Underhand Grip Press Down 1 8-10 each 1/0/1 CMR
Dropset: Decline Lying EZ-Bar Extension 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR

QUADS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Leg Extensions & Barbell Squats 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Superset: Leg Press & Leg Extension 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 CMR
Dropset: Smith Lunge 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR


HAMSTRINGS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Seated Leg Curl & Leg Press (feet top of platform) 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Superset: Stiff- Leg Dead Lift & Lying Leg Curl 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 CMR
Dropset: Standing Unilateral Leg Curl 1 10-12, drop, 4-6 1/0/1 CMR


TRAPEZIUS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Seated Dumbbell Shrug & Cable CG Upright Row 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Dropset: Barbell Shrug 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR


LOWER BACK
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Back Extensions & Dead Lifts 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Dropset: Good Mornings 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR


FOREARMS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Barbell Wrist Curl & Cable Rope Hammer Curl 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Dropset: Barbell Reverse Wrist Curl 1 10-12, drop, 4-6 1/0/1 CMR


CALVES
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Calf Press & Standing Calf Raise 2 8-10 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery (CMR)
Dropset: Seated Calf Raise 1 10-12, drop, 6-8 1/0/1 CMR


ABDOMINALS
EXERCISE SETS REPS TEMPO REST
Superset: Lying Straight Leg Raise & Incline Sit-Up 2 10-12 each 1/0/1 Cardiovascular/mental recovery

Once you complete a 3-week mini cycle of P/RR/S, simply return to the beginning and repeat. Keep the exercises the same, but strive to train more intensely during the next cycle. Your goal should be to either increase the amount of weight you lift while maintaining the same reps, or, to complete more reps while using the same weights. After 9 full week meso-cycle (three 3-week P/RR/S cycles) it is best to take a full week off from the gym, or to at least engage in one week of very light training to allow you to recharge your batteries.
What do you guys think? I think if I stay committed, this program will catapult me towards my goals . Feel encouraged to critique and criticize!
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Old 10-19-2007, 03:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Hmph, but right now, wouldn't you say I'm in the mid teens - in respect to body fat %?
Hmmm...men can generally see their abs at 10 to 12% bf if I remember correctly. I'm not talking washboard but visible abs. But some people will hold onto fat more in some areas even though they are at a fairly low percentage overall. BF% does not predict storage patterns. However, 10 to 12% were be a perfectly reasonable baseline with which to proceed.
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Old 10-19-2007, 03:17 PM   #16
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Yeah, I think I'll cut until I hit the 10ish BF%. How's the plan look?

I'll keep everyone posted, too. Thanks for all the help so far guys, it means a lot!
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Old 10-19-2007, 03:21 PM   #17
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The plan looks overcomplicated for a beginner, at first glance. There are no days listed, btw, just muscle groups.
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Old 10-19-2007, 03:35 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
The plan looks overcomplicated for a beginner, at first glance. There are no days listed, btw, just muscle groups.
Really? What would you recommend for a program, then?

Sorry about unlisted days ; I was thinking along the lines of ...

Tuesday - Chest / Triceps , Thursday - Back / Biceps, Saturday - Legs / Shoulders.

On my cardio days (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) I'd do abdominals, too.
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Old 10-19-2007, 05:47 PM   #19
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The most important thing to keep in mind for any trainee looking to just put on muscle mass (bulk) is that you can't do it with isolation exercises. Having a 'shoulders' day is no good - same goes for triceps, biceps days, as well as having legs and back on different days. The problem with that kind of programming is that it prevents you from using exercises that overlap - the compound ones, the good ones for packing on powerful mass. For instance, a bench press can work your chest, triceps, and shoulders, all in one movement. What day would you put that on, really?

For a beginner, you don't need too much stuff involving supersets, dropsets, etc. You've got a lot of volume there but it does seem like a lot to do - overcomplicated is right. Check out the info here:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224
And look into that program (I think it's in the 3rd post or so that they actually list the program itself). It focuses on just the basic compound movements, with only a very small bit of assistance work. I can say from experience that it works really, really well for beginner-level stuff.
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Old 10-20-2007, 07:57 AM   #20
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Decided to simplify things, took Eric's suggestion. I was helped in designing an upper and lower body split, so I could concentrate on my diet and cardio for cutting.

Quote:
Upper
Bench Press
BB Bent Row
BB Military Press
Chin Up, or dips, or both

Lower
Squat
Deadlift
Leg Press
Lunges
upper = A
lower = B

you do ABA monday, wednesday, friday

so week 1:
monday = a
wednesday = b
friday = a

week 2:
monday = b
wednesday = a
friday = b

Whaddya you guys think?
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