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MMA discussion on Strength-Endurance program ... for the MMAist in me, within the Bodybuilding Forum; It all started when i got a PM from my good buddy Dave. He said here check this out I ...


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Old 08-17-2006, 08:03 AM   #1
hrdgain81
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Default Strength-Endurance program ... for the MMAist in me

It all started when i got a PM from my good buddy Dave. He said here check this out I think you'll like it: Article Here

Dave was right, it peaked my interest. So I went to Lyle McDonalds forum to see what that crazy bastard thought about it (cause I respect his opinion highly) and here is what went down: thread Here





Now personally I think all of this is extremely useful, and I am going to put together a strength-endurance program from all of this. But here i'd like to open it up to further discussion, and see what you guys think about it.

The first thing I would put out there is something lyle said, that wasnt very pronounced, but I think is perhaps the largest draw back to this type of workout.

Initial strength is going to be the limiting factor here. A program such as this will increase your strength endurance, but your 1 rep max is not going to change much. For that reason I think it would be best to cycle a S-E routine, with a strength building routine, perhaps at a 3 to 1 ratio.




I also want to point out there isnt much room here for hypertrophy, so if bodybuilding is your goal, this aint got nothing for you. Personally I have no need for hypertrophy right now. I'm big enough, but there is always room to hit harder.

My personal program to follow, that shit still needs tweeking.

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Old 08-17-2006, 08:22 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrdgain81
Initial strength is going to be the limiting factor here. A program such as this will increase your strength endurance, but your 1 rep max is not going to change much. For that reason I think it would be best to cycle a S-E routine, with a strength building routine, perhaps at a 3 to 1 ratio.



I also want to point out there isnt much room here for hypertrophy, so if bodybuilding is your goal, this aint got nothing for you. Personally I have no need for hypertrophy right now. I'm big enough, but there is always room to hit harder.

My personal program to follow, that shit still needs tweeking.
I totally agree on this point. The type of workout S-E is can almost be compared to DE day on a Westside power lifting program but there is more use of the high sets/ low reps for supplemental work, such as dips 15 sets of 3 or so.

I was also thinking about changing some things up and adding a type of Max effort day after 2 weeks or so of S-E. But I need to read up on WS a little more before venturing out on this part.

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Old 08-17-2006, 08:56 AM   #3
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Most definately, I also need to figure out how to work my diet to fit in with this. And what roll diffrent pre and post workout nutrition will play in this scenario ... should be fun.

I'm going to give the basic timed RP principal a try tonight, just to see how I like it.
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Old 08-17-2006, 09:19 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrdgain81
Most definitely, I also need to figure out how to work my diet to fit in with this. And what roll different pre and post workout nutrition will play in this scenario ... should be fun.

I'm going to give the basic timed RP principal a try tonight, just to see how I like it.
I would gear my diet to higher carbs and moderate fat and of course high protein. I would keep the cals. at maintenance and see what happens after 2 weeks, then adjust accordingly.

I can't wait to see how you gear this. Let us know how it goes, especially because I've been wanting to do this program for a while.
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Old 08-17-2006, 09:31 AM   #5
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Well, that would work. Or, at least is would work in giving you lots of endruance for the weight work. Some of that strength endruance would spill over into MMA, BUT I don't think it's the ultimate of CONDITIONING. So if this is really about MMA my only thought would be not to put all your eggs in one basket.

I'm wondering what happened to "complexes"...the Alwyn Cosgrove article?

Now the above is about working with as much weight as possible in any particular movement WHILE training strength endurance, rather than doing the whole high reps thing. In complexes you use one weight for an entire complex. So maybe not so good for maximal strength endurance. BUT the body tends to adapt in very specific ways to any demand put on it. One thing to always keep in mind is what actually goes on in the ring. Complexes, putting wieght aside, will more closely mimic the demands of the sport. So it's something I would consider using also.


You don't do a movement for a little while, rest for 30 seconds, then repeat. Instead, you move your body throught many different planes and use many different dynamics. And this may be quite continuous. Your body has to be conditioned as a unit. I mean, you could stand up for a while where your moving around throwing punches, knees, kicks, whatever. Constants movement couple with ballistic, peak power movements. Then you could be on the ground where overal strength endurance of the entire body is necessary plus dynamic movements...this all going on continuously without a break for a lot longer than a low rep set.

Yes, I agree that this type of strength endurance training will be very useful. And, sure you may get rest periods down to 20 secs or so. But 20 sec is a lot longer rest than you get in a round unless you plan on taking a knee. I'm not downing the idea. Like I said I think it will be useful. I'm only saying it has it's drawbacks.

Also, I would think about choosing exercieses that more closely mimic the demands of the sport. I've noticed that the "sample routines" on stuff like this still pretty much look like what any weight trainer would choose except maybe with a clean and jerk or something. Again, SAID principal. And core strength has GOT to be the number on priority. Especially unilateral training, standing exercises, and exerices done on a unstable plane. Last time I checked you couldn't get your opponent to stand still in front of you while you liftted him up.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 08-17-2006, 09:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237
Well, that would work. Or, at least is would work in giving you lots of endurance for the weight work. Some of that strength endurance would spill over into MMA, BUT I don't think it's the ultimate of CONDITIONING. So if this is really about MMA my only thought would be not to put all your eggs in one basket.
I'm wondering what happened to "complexes"...the Alwyn Cosgrove article?
Nothing ever happened to it. I was just suggesting a different type of workout that would also work on a type of endurance. It would be interesting to try and work in a cycle of S-E and Complexes. I find they both have equal merits on the ability to build up endurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237
Now the above is about working with as much weight as possible in any particular movement WHILE training strength endurance, rather than doing the whole high reps thing. In complexes you use one weight for an entire complex. So maybe not so good for maximal strength endurance. BUT the body tends to adapt in very specific ways to any demand put on it. One thing to always keep in mind is what actually goes on in the ring. Complexes, putting weight aside, will more closely mimic the demands of the sport. So it's something I would consider using also

You don't do a movement for a little while, rest for 30 seconds, then repeat. Instead, you move your body through many different planes and use many different dynamics. And this may be quite continuous. Your body has to be conditioned as a unit. I mean, you could stand up for a while where your moving around throwing punches, knees, kicks, whatever. Constants movement couple with ballistic, peak power movements. Then you could be on the ground where overall strength endurance of the entire body is necessary plus dynamic movements...this all going on continuously without a break for a lot longer than a low rep set.

Yes, I agree that this type of strength endurance training will be very useful. And, sure you may get rest periods down to 20 secs or so. But 20 sec is a lot longer rest than you get in a round unless you plan on taking a knee. I'm not downing the idea. Like I said I think it will be useful. I'm only saying it has it's drawbacks.
I think with the S-E, it's more of an explosive workout so that in a match you can save some energy and then explode a couple of times in a fight and rest. In a competition you will have times to break and gather yourself, stall in the clinch, on the ground in guard, when a ref. breaks it up, yes it my not be 20 seconds but you also are not trying to bench or clean and press your opponent.

Yet again, I definitely see what your saying and agree with the different styles of training that would be generated for the Complexes and S-E.
In that sense, just S-E does have drawbacks but most workout concentrate on one thing more than another, but now we are jumping into the realm of what a person's goals are and what they want to achieve.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237


Also, I would think about choosing exercises that more closely mimic the demands of the sport. I've noticed that the "sample routines" on stuff like this still pretty much look like what any weight trainer would choose except maybe with a clean and jerk or something. Again, SAID principal. And core strength has GOT to be the number on priority. Especially unilateral training, standing exercises, and exercise done on a unstable plane. Last time I checked you couldn't get your opponent to stand still in front of you while you lifted him up.
True, I think trying to get more core and Olympic/dynamic movements in there could aid more. But you also have to remember that you are also training in martial arts and this will help in combining your strength with movements to help control the situation. Also, I would add plyometrics to a workout like this to help fill in some of the gaps and make sure I use some rubber bands for a type of resistance.
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Old 08-17-2006, 10:09 AM   #7
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A couple of things here. eric, the problem I had with the complexes was that it didnt allow for use of optimal wieghts. From what i remember some of the movements were full range. So I would have to drop the wieghts inorder to complete the move. This would be the same problem I had with doing high reps.

The other thing I want to look at is Lyle's last post. He suggests completely seperating the high and low rep schemes like this

Quote:
Squat: 2X5/3'
Bench press: 2X5/3'
Row: 2X5/3'
any heavy core work.
take a 5' rest. Now.

The above should take like 20-30' tops and will maintain your strength for extended periods.

Circuit crap: set up your circuit and do whatevr you choose to do.

Lyle
To be honest I dont see the logic. It will keep strength up, and then you get some endurance work. What I want is to be able to hit as hard as possible, for as long as possible. For that reason I will look more toward the RP variant I was talking about earlier on his forum.

Eric, As for the sample movements in Wiggins article, I dont think that is even near the workout I will be doing. Give me some time to post up what I am thinking of doing, then critique me. I have a feeling its gonna look a lot diff then wiggins.
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Old 08-17-2006, 10:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
It would be interesting to try and work in a cycle of S-E and Complexes. I find they both have equal merits on the ability to build up endurance.
Well that's what I was thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
But you also have to remember that you are also training in martial arts and this will help in combining your strength with movements to help control the situation.
I see what you're saying and Dave I'm not trying to down your ideas, I'm just discussing. And I didn't forget that you're also training in MA. And I agree to some extent. What I am talking about is getting the most out of every type of training you do. This all comes back to specificity. If your body (CNS) becomes more effecient at a certain weitht exercise through many different types of neural adaptations and/or more muscle that strength does not 100% transfer to other movements. It is somewhat specific. The more disimilar the movement is the less the strength transfers. Your body does not say "lets take this bench press strength and learn to apply it to this other situation." Either the movement is similar enough to realize a lot of strength gain; or it's not. The closer the specific movements you train are to the demands or the sport, the better the results are lible to be IMO. But I'm just talking about the sport. If that is not someones goal, then it doesn't apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
In that sense, just S-E does have drawbacks but most workout concentrate on one thing more than another,
This is the point I'm trying to make.
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Old 08-17-2006, 10:24 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237

This is the point I'm trying to make.
I love this. We agree it's just we come at it from different views. That's why I love this board.
and

I'm not taking it as you putting down the workout. I'm just trying to put my take on it too. But it seems that, in the end, we both agree on the results.

And with the bench press example you give, I guess what I meant to say was if you build overall S-E or just strength, you can apply it when you train MA. For example, In my Judo class, I'm the strongest guy there, not boasting, I just am, and my overall strength helps me throw people easier.

I guess it's like saying if you want bigger arms you should squat and do big complex movement along with some supplemental arm exercises.

I don't know if that's a good analogy but My brain is a little dead from work right now.
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Old 08-17-2006, 11:21 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardgain
the problem I had with the complexes was that it didnt allow for use of optimal wieghts. From what i remember some of the movements were full range. So I would have to drop the wieghts inorder to complete the move. This would be the same problem I had with doing high reps.
Oh, absolutely. That's why I said "In complexes you use one weight for an entire complex. So maybe not so good for maximal strength endurance." What I'm thinking from all this is maybe a cycling that combines ME strength with the type of strength endurance training and the type of body conditioning that complexes achieve would be great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardgain
To be honest I dont see the logic. It will keep strength up, and then you get some endurance work. What I want is to be able to hit as hard as possible, for as long as possible. For that reason I will look more toward the RP variant I was talking about earlier on his forum.
I agree. Something always has to give. Now what Dave said about being the strongest is certainly a big advantage. But strength endurance and overall conditioning has got to be SO important for when that superior power is not able to come into play. Makes me think of someone like Royce Gracie. You saw him with guys with big knockout power or with guys with just more strength who were able to resist for a certain time just with overall brute force. But that superior strength endurance is like a steam locomotive; slow but unstoppable. Either you knock it clean off the tracks or it keeps moving forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardgain
Eric, As for the sample movements in Wiggins article, I dont think that is even near the workout I will be doing. Give me some time to post up what I am thinking of doing, then critique me. I have a feeling its gonna look a lot diff then wiggins.
I look forward to it. And I wasn't making ANY assumptions about what you plan to do! Just putting it out there. I didn't think you were planning on following his examples verbatim or anything. Heck, I wasn't even talking about wiggins specifically, just the type of things in general I see, and no reflection on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
I love this. We agree it's just we come at it from different views. That's why I love this board.
Yup!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave
And with the bench press example you give, I guess what I meant to say was if you build overall S-E or just strength, you can apply it when you train MA...'m the strongest guy there
No doubt of that! And I certainly wasn't trying to say that you must not be able to apply any of your strength! Another thing is there is only so much training you can do. Of course I recognize that. But as to my point about specificity I'll try to give a specific example. Say you want to as much strength as possible to throw your opponent. What, in the end, is going to be the best? A clean and jerk or a deadlift, whether DE, ME or both....OR, a movement utilizing heavy weight that more closely mimics throwing, including the twisting and things like that? I vote the latter. I'm not saying that it's possible to mimic every single movement, etc. and so on, but it serves to illustrate the point.

And thinking about your point about supplementals. I've seen some weird results in studies that show JUST how specific the body can be. There was one utilizing EMG and MV something (mecancal vibration something or other) on trained and untrained subject doing olympic squats and weighted leg (knee) extensions. What was interesting is that while the subjects doing squats AND leg extensions got stronger in the squats, there was no increase in the leg extension. AND the quads got bigger. It's just that the CNS didn't become more effecient in the leg extension excercise. The bigger quads were just useless slabs of meat when it came to increasing strength in the extensions...as if the body pulled all it's resources into improving effeciency in the more demanding squat movement. You see what I'm saying? Stronger quads from squats did not seem to transfer to leg extensions at all, even though the same muscle group was utilized (yes, olympic squats are not all quads but it's in there).

I think what I'm saying comes down to a statement by James Smith: "Fighters are best served by thinking in terms of training movements, as opposed to training muscles."

Last edited by EricT; 08-17-2006 at 11:36 AM..
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