Pre and Post Workout Nutrition

[Eric3237]

Done, 0311. On the pre cardio nutrition thing I'm looking for more info. I know this could cause a shit-storm. Personally I've heard a lot of very well reasoned and sciency arguments for fasted cardio or specifically morining fasted cardio. And also arguments for some protein before depending on you goals and the intensity. But these studies are from '99 and so far I haven't found anyting else that takes them into account.

[ChinPieceDave667]

I've read sooo many things on this and I was also, long ago, a believer in cardio on an empty stomach. Then I read an article about how doing cardio on an empty stomach will raise cortisol levels and causes catabolic effects on muscle. After reading that I've never purposely done cardio on an completely empty stomach. Reason I say purposely is because every once an awhile I'll for get and half way through the cardio it'll hit me.

[Eric3237]

Yeah. People are still going around and around. I think there are no absolute answers and of course it depends on what works best for the individual and the intensity/duration of the cardio.

When it comes to preserving muscle mass, and taking into account the above info, I'd definitely go with with you on that, Dave. And

As Lyle Macdonal said:

Again, it depends.

Some people can train fine on an empty stomach, others can't.
What you need to do during:
low intensity cardio
vs.
high intensity carido
vs.
weight training

Is not necessarily the same either.
Optimal (in theory or in practice) pre/during/post workout nutrition is going to depend on a host of factors. Are there generalizations that can be made? Sure.

...It's lovely to think that nutrition and life is that simple and black and white but it's not. You can always find situationally specific exceptions to just about everything.

And another point:

Seriously, no matter what detailed minutiae typse of arguments people want to make, any strategy that seriuosly harms your ability to work hard in the gym FAR outweights any benefit from doing something else.

That is, even if not taking in carbs pre and during workout improves seomething, if it means you can't work as hard, it doesn't matter. Everything else, hormonal crapola, nutrient oxidation and all that shit pales in comparison to anything that harms your ability to train effectively.

According to Christian Thibadeau (speaking of protein before)

Thibaudeau: If fasted state cardio could potentially increase fat mobilization, it's also potentially more catabolic to muscle tissue. This is due to an increase in cortisol production during fasted exercise. Since cortisol levels are already high in the morning, this could lead to more muscle wasting than during non-fasted cardio.

In fact, cortisol levels could increase muscle breakdown and the use of amino acids as an energy source. This is especially true if high-intensity energy systems work is performed. If an individual uses lower intensity (around 60-65% of maximum heart rate), the need for glucose and cortisol release are both reduced and thus the situation becomes less catabolic.

I personally do believe in the efficacy of morning cardio, but not in a completely fasted state. For optimal results I prefer to ingest a small amount of amino acids approximately 15-30 minutes before the cardio session. A mix of 5g of BCAA, 5g of glutamine (yeah, I know that Dave Barr won't agree with me on this!), and 5g of essential amino acids would do the trick in preventing any unwanted muscle breakdown.

However, I'll also play devil's advocate and say that morning cardio won't be drastically more effective than post-workout or afternoon cardio work when it comes to fat loss. Personally, I prefer to split up my cardio into two shorter sessions (morning and post-workout).

Notice Thibadeau said If fasted state cardio could potentially increase fat mobilization....

Originally Posted by Second Study Above

Our results support the hypothesis that endurance training enhances lipid oxidation in men after a 12-h overnight fast at low relative exercise intensities

[sweilem]

Thanks for all this info, its so helpfull.

[Eric3237]

You're welcome (from all of us, I'm sure ).

[Eric3237]

This is quite a bit of work...I haven't been able to read through it all but I wanted to link it anyway. He wrote another very good article called Window of Oppurtunity.

Scientific Investigation into the Rationality of Carbohydrate
Consumption Criterions in Correlation to Post-Training
Anaerobic Depletion Patterns: A series of sub-divisional essays.

Researched and Composed by Adam “Old School” Knowlden

*Edit - I forgot to add that while these articles are nice I don't think it's necessary to use some bodyweight formula to come up with the exact amount of carbs and protein to consume pre and post workout. Probably a lot of trouble for very little difference than what you'd get from the general recommendations in this thread.

Also this one by Venom:

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magaz...m#measurements

It's an analysis of malto, dex, and sodium. It explains very well the rationale behind using malto AND dex instead of just one.

[Eric3237]

Will Brink's latest article on this (from the current conferences). Pretty much still confirms what is stated here.

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledeta...id=85&acatid=3

[Eric3237]

I thought this should be cross referenced here:

Insulin Sensitivity/Resistance