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Nutrition discussion on pre/post workout..., within the Bodybuilding Forum; The problem with that is there is really only one rate of 'assimilation' with any given meal. Basically the denser ...


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Old 09-28-2007, 11:53 AM   #11
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The problem with that is there is really only one rate of 'assimilation' with any given meal. Basically the denser the meal the slower it ALL assimilates. You can't have slow and fast at the same time. The meal you've described may be medium or slow but it will effectively cancel out the point of taking in the high GI's except to just get the total carbs up.
Yeah, I agree but I wasn't descriptive enough lol.. I'm NOT saying to take in fast and slow carbs at the same time.

What I do:

Postworkout:

Dextrose
Creatine

15 minutes after:

Protein

Shortly thereafter:

Small 40 grams oatmeal

1.5 hours later:

Meal


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Old 09-28-2007, 11:59 AM   #12
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That still doesn't adress the casein plus whey for your post workout shake . My point still stands. If your want fast amino acids post workout stick to whey only. Now I'm not debating what any one person should do but there is really no reason to be paranoid about having slow proteins to tide you over until PPWO unless one is looking at a sizable time period in which case just gettin in a lot of food period should be the goal.

BTW, a I've seen a lot of people touting the benefits of whey and casein for immedietely post lately based on some recent studies. Saying it's better than just whey alone or just carbohydrate alone. Those studies were done with whey plus casein w/ carbsvs. carbohydrate alone. What they prove is that protein w/ carbs may be, and probably is, superior to carbs alone (I'm sure of that ). It has nothing to do with whether whey alone or casein plus whey would be better. Of course if there is not PPWO meal forthcoming than I would vote for slow proteins OR shots of whey periodically for the post post workout period.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:05 PM   #13
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So you're saying that if you drink a shake made up of 50% whey, and 50% egg white, the shake won't assimilate fast AND slow? You're saying that the egg will hinder digestion of the whey for a delayed period??

From what I read, whey takes up to an hour to fully digest, and since I eat about 1.5 hours after my shake, IMO it makes sense to utilize both??
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Old 09-28-2007, 12:15 PM   #14
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I didnt realize that held true with both protien and carbs. My understanding was that if you mix high GI carbs, with Low GI carbs, there combined GI rating is some where in the middle. Interesting that protien has the same type reaction.

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Old 09-28-2007, 01:04 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311 View Post
So you're saying that if you drink a shake made up of 50% whey, and 50% egg white, the shake won't assimilate fast AND slow? You're saying that the egg will hinder digestion of the whey for a delayed period??
would like to know this as well, i been throwing an egg in the postworkout shake as well.
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Old 09-28-2007, 01:17 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311
So you're saying that if you drink a shake made up of 50% whey, and 50% egg white, the shake won't assimilate fast AND slow? You're saying that the egg will hinder digestion of the whey for a delayed period??


Yeah well not hinder it just slowing down the rate of appearance. It helps if you think of the stomach as a big blender. Everything gets churned up and mixed together into a slurry. Plus different things may react differently to the stomach acid.

The thing is whey as a protein is unusually fast. There is really nothing else like it. But that is whey, not milk. If the stomach could empty some things slow while other components emptied faster then you wouldn't need whey for a fast protein would you? You could just drink milk.

Egg will slow down the assimilation just the same way as any solid protein would but not as much as casein I don't think because of the way casein coagulates or forms a gel when it hits the acid and so binds other proteins up. But basically the more "stuff" in there the longer it is all going to take to assimilate. If you want to get the full benefit of the fast nature of whey you just have to use it alone.

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From what I read, whey takes up to an hour to fully digest, and since I eat about 1.5 hours after my shake, IMO it makes sense to utilize both??


There are many factors that affect gastic emptying of course but the average whey only shake is probably going to start delivering large amounts of aminos into the blood in as little as TWENTY minutes. Your stomach would be mostly emptied of it if not totally empty.

It would be better, to go by the different peak times in the blood. Again, there are no hard and fast rules so I am just talking averages culled from the studies. With whey, on average you are looking at a peak in amino acids of about FORTY minutes and your done at around an HOUR and returing to normal. This is probably the figure that led to your reading it takes an hour to "digest" which would really negate the benefit of whey in regards to being fast. But the net balance goes much higher than with casein and protein synthesis is affected more than with casein. There is a much bigger, but shorter lived peak with whey. MUCH bigger.

I think using a little egg in the post workout shake is probably a better strategy than using a bunch of casein.

If you are going to be able to eat around an hour later than there really is not point in using anything but whey and carbs, imo.

For eating 1.5 hours later it's not really that huge a difference but one thing that may be helpful is not to get caught up in the total amounts taken at one time.

If I had to wait 1.5 hours to eat this is what I would do. I would make a big shake with just whey and carbs. Maybe up to 100 grams each. Lots of water. Then I'd slam half of it right away and I'd sip on the rest (I know this may not be possible for everyone) slowly over the next half hour. The slower the better. By the time you get finished with the shake and you are waiting to have the next meal there is plenty of time. You've gotten all the benefits of the fast aminos and carbs plus you've delivered the second half over a longer period without sacrifising anything. Then you can eat a solid meal with not worries. And 100 total grams would not be necessary to do that.

I mean that is just what I would do if possible.

Don't get me wrong though, anyone, I would never say that this is by any means all a foregone consclusion, just the consensus based on info to date. People tend to interpret it in different ways. Plus, I believe there may be a difference between what happens when carbs are involved vs. when it is just protein alone.
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Old 09-28-2007, 01:22 PM   #17
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good infoz.

so i'm gonna order some malto and dextro...half a scoop of each preworkout and postworkout?
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Old 09-28-2007, 01:42 PM   #18
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But just to be clear, whey is fast meaning an hour to fully digest. It's not like it takes 5 minutes or anything lol.. Comparing whey to casein is like comparing a turtle to a snail. I have heard about the carbohydrates slowing each other down, but never proteins. In reality for me, I take a 60 gram whey shake immediately preworkout, so I'm getting a good steady stream of aminos anyways. I'm just not sold on whey/casein slowing down digestion, but I do understand your outlook on the blending in the stomach.
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Old 09-28-2007, 01:57 PM   #19
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It's not my outlook it's just fact . But whey doesn't take an hour to fully digest. It takes up to around forty minutes to reach peak blood levels and starts going down after that. It is SUPER fast and is like comparing a cheetah to a turtle. I just want to be clear. Big difference between peak levels of aminos in forty minutes vs. three hours!

BUT I totally see your logic about having the whey for pre-workout. And it's 60 grams so thats a lot. So really you are delivering aminos the whole time plus the carbs and shit. Can't dispute your logic there. It all comes down to the same thing probably! So it's really comparing apples and oranges. I think it sounds good.

My biggest thing was to dispell the idea of having fast AND slow assimilation. No such thing. There is just a base assimilation based on the content of the meal. There is no getting around that. Your protocal I think is probably a great one. ALL I'm saying is that IF someone's goal for POST is FAST stuff...then no casein or egg.

To be totally honest I myself am not really waiting around an hour before I have my PPWO meal! I work out at home anyway. I stick with fast stuff for pre and post mostly out of keeping it simple and having ready access to other type of things to eat. In reality I'm usually eating a big meal in thirty minutes at the most if not sooner. And it is because of the SAME thing you said. I already had fast protein and carbs for pre. Pre is the most important anyway, IMO. I've had a steady stream of aminos for over an hour already by the time I have my PPWO.

But don't you think some malto with the dextrose would be better to handle?
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Old 09-28-2007, 02:03 PM   #20
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I actually made a bad analogy.. What I meant to say was that if I'm faster than a turtle, that doesn't mean I'm fast lol..

If you want something in the 10-20 minute mark postworkout, it's EAA's or hydroslate.

In regards to casein vs. whey, of course you have to side with whey (anabolic) vs. casein (anti catabolic). The way I understood it, casein breaks down slower, but aminos are still getting released albiet a lot less than whey initially. But taking 60/40 whey casein to me meant getting a lot higher concentrations initially of aminos, AND some sustained release for the period in between eating. Combined with a stout preworkout drink (whey) OR BCAA's taking pre and during working out, you're good to go.
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