pre/post workout...
 

pre:

creatine with grape juice
wait awhile...
peanut butter or tuna sandwich on whole wheat...sometimes just one slice of bread...and then whey with water...

post:

creatine with grape juice
don't wait that long...
whey with oatmeal blended in with water...

i figured that oatmeal afterward will get me some carbs and calories...and sometimes...i get tired of eating so much...so if i can just drink it...all the better :)

everything ok with this setup?

i have 10oz whey pre workout with tuna maybe and post i'll have whey with skim milk + tsp of peanutbutter. i'll eat some fruit too to spike insulin levels. i think oatmeal in a whey shake is really smart. i did that once but forgot about it. now i'm going to do it again :)

you dont want oatmeal in your post workout shake. Its low GI and wont absorb very quickly, you want maltodextrin and dextrose so it gets to the gut, and into your muscle cells as quickly as possible.

Save the oatmeal for about an hour after your post workout shake.

ok...thanks for zee info dude. new supp store opened up down the street...maybe i'll go see what they got for carbs...

Nice, but malto/dex shouldnt cost you much.

TP has it for like 2 bucks a pound....i may go that route....

^^^ Completely agree good advice

Nice, and a few lbs will last you a month plus.

I've always gone with high GI (dextrose) and low GI (oatmeal) postworkout. Fast assimilation plus slow which will tide you over until your PPWO meal. You really do need some sustained release carbohydrate. And to be honest, my postworkout shake is 60% casein, 40% whey which also has fast assimilation that's needed immediately postworkout, and slow assimilation which will keep the aminos flowing until my meal. That ensures there's no dead space between my shake and meal.

The problem with that is there is really only one rate of 'assimilation' with any given meal. Basically the denser the meal the slower it ALL assimilates. You can't have slow and fast at the same time. The meal you've described may be medium or slow but it will effectively cancel out the point of taking in the high GI's except to just get the total carbs up. Same thing with the protein. You mix whey and prtein and it's not longer super fast assimilation in terms of the whey. The biggest factor is the stomach, not the gut.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it. Everyone should do what they feel comfortable with and what they feel works. What I'm saying is that there is one speed of gastric emptying for any one meal. The more stuff you put in the longer it will sit in your stomach. The stomach can't somehow miraculously separated whey and high GI carbs from casein and low GI carbs. It will all be mixed into a thick slurry and it will all end up being assimilated slower than it would have if the fast protein and carbs were used alone. In other words, you can't really mix protocols to any real extent. You will either have fast, medium, or slow. Not one or more.

Yeah, I agree but I wasn't descriptive enough lol.. I'm NOT saying to take in fast and slow carbs at the same time.

What I do:

Postworkout:

Dextrose
Creatine

15 minutes after:

Protein

Shortly thereafter:

Small 40 grams oatmeal

1.5 hours later:

Meal

:D

That still doesn't adress the casein plus whey for your post workout shake :D. My point still stands. If your want fast amino acids post workout stick to whey only. Now I'm not debating what any one person should do but there is really no reason to be paranoid about having slow proteins to tide you over until PPWO unless one is looking at a sizable time period in which case just gettin in a lot of food period should be the goal.

BTW, a I've seen a lot of people touting the benefits of whey and casein for immedietely post lately based on some recent studies. Saying it's better than just whey alone or just carbohydrate alone. Those studies were done with whey plus casein w/ carbsvs. carbohydrate alone. What they prove is that protein w/ carbs may be, and probably is, superior to carbs alone (I'm sure of that :D). It has nothing to do with whether whey alone or casein plus whey would be better. Of course if there is not PPWO meal forthcoming than I would vote for slow proteins OR shots of whey periodically for the post post workout period.

So you're saying that if you drink a shake made up of 50% whey, and 50% egg white, the shake won't assimilate fast AND slow? You're saying that the egg will hinder digestion of the whey for a delayed period??

From what I read, whey takes up to an hour to fully digest, and since I eat about 1.5 hours after my shake, IMO it makes sense to utilize both??

I didnt realize that held true with both protien and carbs. My understanding was that if you mix high GI carbs, with Low GI carbs, there combined GI rating is some where in the middle. Interesting that protien has the same type reaction.

would like to know this as well, i been throwing an egg in the postworkout shake as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0311 So you're saying that if you drink a shake made up of 50% whey, and 50% egg white, the shake won't assimilate fast AND slow? You're saying that the egg will hinder digestion of the whey for a delayed period??

Yeah well not hinder it just slowing down the rate of appearance. It helps if you think of the stomach as a big blender. Everything gets churned up and mixed together into a slurry. Plus different things may react differently to the stomach acid.

The thing is whey as a protein is unusually fast. There is really nothing else like it. But that is whey, not milk. If the stomach could empty some things slow while other components emptied faster then you wouldn't need whey for a fast protein would you? You could just drink milk.

Egg will slow down the assimilation just the same way as any solid protein would but not as much as casein I don't think because of the way casein coagulates or forms a gel when it hits the acid and so binds other proteins up. But basically the more "stuff" in there the longer it is all going to take to assimilate. If you want to get the full benefit of the fast nature of whey you just have to use it alone.

Quote:

From what I read, whey takes up to an hour to fully digest, and since I eat about 1.5 hours after my shake, IMO it makes sense to utilize both??

There are many factors that affect gastic emptying of course but the average whey only shake is probably going to start delivering large amounts of aminos into the blood in as little as TWENTY minutes. Your stomach would be mostly emptied of it if not totally empty.

It would be better, to go by the different peak times in the blood. Again, there are no hard and fast rules so I am just talking averages culled from the studies. With whey, on average you are looking at a peak in amino acids of about FORTY minutes and your done at around an HOUR and returing to normal. This is probably the figure that led to your reading it takes an hour to "digest" which would really negate the benefit of whey in regards to being fast. But the net balance goes much higher than with casein and protein synthesis is affected more than with casein. There is a much bigger, but shorter lived peak with whey. MUCH bigger.

I think using a little egg in the post workout shake is probably a better strategy than using a bunch of casein.

If you are going to be able to eat around an hour later than there really is not point in using anything but whey and carbs, imo.

For eating 1.5 hours later it's not really that huge a difference but one thing that may be helpful is not to get caught up in the total amounts taken at one time.

If I had to wait 1.5 hours to eat this is what I would do. I would make a big shake with just whey and carbs. Maybe up to 100 grams each. Lots of water. Then I'd slam half of it right away and I'd sip on the rest (I know this may not be possible for everyone) slowly over the next half hour. The slower the better. By the time you get finished with the shake and you are waiting to have the next meal there is plenty of time. You've gotten all the benefits of the fast aminos and carbs plus you've delivered the second half over a longer period without sacrifising anything. Then you can eat a solid meal with not worries. And 100 total grams would not be necessary to do that.

I mean that is just what I would do if possible.

Don't get me wrong though, anyone, I would never say that this is by any means all a foregone consclusion, just the consensus based on info to date. People tend to interpret it in different ways. Plus, I believe there may be a difference between what happens when carbs are involved vs. when it is just protein alone.

good infoz.

so i'm gonna order some malto and dextro...half a scoop of each preworkout and postworkout?

But just to be clear, whey is fast meaning an hour to fully digest. It's not like it takes 5 minutes or anything lol.. Comparing whey to casein is like comparing a turtle to a snail. :D I have heard about the carbohydrates slowing each other down, but never proteins. In reality for me, I take a 60 gram whey shake immediately preworkout, so I'm getting a good steady stream of aminos anyways. I'm just not sold on whey/casein slowing down digestion, but I do understand your outlook on the blending in the stomach. :)

It's not my outlook it's just fact :biglaugh:. But whey doesn't take an hour to fully digest. It takes up to around forty minutes to reach peak blood levels and starts going down after that. It is SUPER fast and is like comparing a cheetah to a turtle. I just want to be clear. Big difference between peak levels of aminos in forty minutes vs. three hours!

BUT I totally see your logic about having the whey for pre-workout. And it's 60 grams so thats a lot. So really you are delivering aminos the whole time plus the carbs and shit. Can't dispute your logic there. It all comes down to the same thing probably! So it's really comparing apples and oranges. I think it sounds good.

My biggest thing was to dispell the idea of having fast AND slow assimilation. No such thing. There is just a base assimilation based on the content of the meal. There is no getting around that. Your protocal I think is probably a great one. ALL I'm saying is that IF someone's goal for POST is FAST stuff...then no casein or egg.

To be totally honest I myself am not really waiting around an hour before I have my PPWO meal! I work out at home anyway. I stick with fast stuff for pre and post mostly out of keeping it simple and having ready access to other type of things to eat. In reality I'm usually eating a big meal in thirty minutes at the most if not sooner. And it is because of the SAME thing you said. I already had fast protein and carbs for pre. Pre is the most important anyway, IMO. I've had a steady stream of aminos for over an hour already by the time I have my PPWO.

But don't you think some malto with the dextrose would be better to handle?

I actually made a bad analogy.. What I meant to say was that if I'm faster than a turtle, that doesn't mean I'm fast lol..

If you want something in the 10-20 minute mark postworkout, it's EAA's or hydroslate.

In regards to casein vs. whey, of course you have to side with whey (anabolic) vs. casein (anti catabolic). The way I understood it, casein breaks down slower, but aminos are still getting released albiet a lot less than whey initially. But taking 60/40 whey casein to me meant getting a lot higher concentrations initially of aminos, AND some sustained release for the period in between eating. Combined with a stout preworkout drink (whey) OR BCAA's taking pre and during working out, you're good to go.

Most of the studies comparing the peaking of casein and whey are done on concentrate, not hydrosolate. And the so-called post workout window lasts up to two hours so I don't think anyone ever said you need something in 5 or ten minutes.

With whey you are much faster than the turtle of casein :D. Concentrate or not it's a really huge difference in the rates of the two. But that's just detail (you may have missed my edit, btw, lol, we are always doing this :)).

And I think your are right you are getting SOME quicker amino as opposed to if your shake was JUST casein. Definitely. I'd say you may be looking at up to 50% slower than if it were just whey. But as before, I agree that it's good. I didn't mean to say that a mixture of whey and casein is assimilated at the same speed as JUST casein. It's still faster.

Let me be clear again, to you 0311, and everyone else that I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do and I'm not saying that 0311's protocol is not good. I think pre is the real test anyway. All I'm doing, as usual, is trying to provide the INFO rather than the conclusions so that people can use it to plan with. What I do may not be the way that is best for you. I'm not trying to foust my methods on anyone. I just like to start with the most accurate info I can so that someone can take whatever value they see fit.

BTW, D, I'm having deja vu. I think we have had this EXACT same conversation before, lol.

You know, as usual, getting caught up in the minutia, I lost sight of that central point about pre-workout meal. I've said it before, the post workout meal and the timing of the nutrients thereof become less important if you're doing fast protein and carbs immediately pre-workout. That was kind of stupid for me to go on and on without even mentioning that until the end. It wasn't until 0311 mentioned the point that I realized I never said anything about it. PRE, I do believe is the more important of the two.

If you're not having the fast stuff for pre but are just having the sower protein and carbs (or a mixture) some time before, than the timing of post becomes more important.

Well you know when it comes to meals the GI of it is affected by everything in the meal including protein, fat, and fiber. The carbs are probably the single most important determinant, of course. But with proteins I'm just talking about the speed of whey. Comparing casein to eggs to beef to chicken would be just completely pointless.

This is not to beat a dead horse but just to share my thoughts. I was reading Alwyn Cosgrove's blog post today and it reminded me of something. Somebody asked about their son being give a casein drink after workouts and wouldn't it be better to have whey.

Alwyn said sure whey is faster but he went on the make the point that the BIGGEST affect is something after the workout veruse nothing after the workout. It is a huge upgrade to just HAVE a shake, slow or fast after your workout. And that will make a much bigger impact than the upgrade to fast protein.

Right off the bat he also pointed out that most of the studies on post workout stuff are done after a FAST. Something I myself have been aware of and even taken pains to point out in the post only to forget the significance of it later on. It's a completely unrealistic scenario and it INFLATES the values given after the post workout drink. Having eaten plenty PERIOD throughout the day is more important in the long run...you can't deny that. But by the same token if, say you're working out first thing in the morning without anything in your stomach then the post workout suddenly becomes really important. But if you have something before hand, even if it's just a pre-workout shake with no really breakfast then the post workout is not going to have anywhere near as significant effect IN THE LONG TERM.

It really underscores, to me, what 0311 was saying about his own pre and post and my own point that PRE is more important and more significant in the long run. Not just pre-workout shakes but the overall status of your bodily fuel.