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Personal Journals discussion on HIThoppers Training Journal, within the Members Section; PS: Hops, I hope you don't mind us talking about this stuff in your log. Good session mate You Kiddin ...


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Old 09-24-2007, 12:12 PM   #41
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PS: Hops, I hope you don't mind us talking about this stuff in your log. Good session mate
You Kiddin me?? HIjack away lads
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Old 09-25-2007, 10:48 AM   #42
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OK Eric, we're definately on the same page with all the theory and technicalities then.


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Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
In a way, you've answered you're on question except to misunderstand what a back off is. A backoff is never done to the point that it allows you to "lose" fitness. Only to the point that it allows accumulated fatigue to drop enough so that the gains in fitness that are occuring as you recover can be shown...i.e. greater "preparedness".
- Yeah, I think that's where I was having difficulties. I was using the phrase "back off" wrong. When preparedness drops then performance will go down. This is not the same as having to"back off," it's just having to use less weight. I messed that up.

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Originally Posted by Eric
I think you may be overestimating what it takes to allow this.
I think so too. I haven't got enough experience with this yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric
There is a huge difference between the stress required to improve fitness and that required to maintain it. This is really fundamental stuff when if comes to strength. But without getting into different kinds of strength and all that let me point out that we would be in big trouble if we always had to maintain the same volume in order to retain strength!
- Most definately. I didn't mean to make it sound so black and white.

Cheers,
Jeff
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Old 09-25-2007, 02:25 PM   #43
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Cool Jeff. I think that you are so smart about this stuff you may be out-thinking yourself. Case in point I wanted to hit on one exchange between us again.

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Originally Posted by Jeffo
I've also always thought that one PR doesn't lead to another once a bunch of progress has been made. If one PR lead to another, HIT would actually work and volume day wouldn't be necessary. I do understand that volume day is linked to the next volume day, but have always thought of PR day is an expression of your current preparedness.
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Originally Posted by me
Yes, one PR does not lead to another...for the most part.
I've said before that it is a mistake to get caught up in applying "theory" to programming. It almost always works better the other way around: Appying sound knowledge of programming to theory.

Most of what I say about the TM is in regards to people overthinking it. So if someone gets too caught up worring about PR's I'll just say worry about progressing on Monday and tending toward PR's on Friday and everything will work itself out. In other words, keep it simple.

When we start getting into all the if's and and's of theory we can miss some very plain and simple things. We start making assumptions. When I say that progress can be linear from Monday to Monday and linear from Friday to Friday I mean exactly that. That's not just me talking that is Rip talking. Most trainees should definitely be looking for some simple linear progression for both days from week to week.

I think most who are new to this kind of thing in general will do best with sticking at 1x5's on Friday. AND they should expect to simply add some weight to that 1x5 every Friday. So simple linear progression. It is also possible for many to start with a single and add a rep to that every Friday (quite an accomplishment, really). Again simple linear progression.

Once a lot of progress has been made and you can't continue in that way on Friday then it's good to start changing it up with different rep attempts and see where that gets you. This is all assuming that progress is constent on Monday but make no mistake, the linear progress mon to mon and fri to fri is what everyone should start out going for.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 09-25-2007, 03:55 PM   #44
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Good Read!

Okay Eric, does this mean when I reset that on PR day I keep using my current PR weight to maintain strength levels. While dropping my Stress day weight by 10% to recover from fatigue and start building up again from there?
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Old 09-25-2007, 04:17 PM   #45
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Yes, assuming that you really do have fatigue and need a backoff. That doesn't mean that while you begin the backoff and begin to build back up that you can't also go for an actual new PR. In other words if you feel like you can do it, do it. Whatever you do for Monday's workout, whether it is to reduce something or to add to it, the idea is to maintain or re-establish the ability to make PR's on Friday.

Rip has some basic criteria in PP of what to look for and how to react. I think for most they'll simply find monday being stalled AND no PR's on Friday so a reduction in monday would be needed. But if you are making progress on Monday with no PR's then you probably need to do more on Monday (I will of course concede that PR's may not be made until after the build up period that most will want to do).

It's going to be pretty difficult for most to know exactly what to do in order to always make PR's. But I also don't think there is any need for perfection. If you go throught with it as long as you can and for most of it you're making some forward progress on Monday and you're making PR's for a good percentage of the time but not necessarily all the time....you're going to come out at the end stronger. Making consistent PR's really means that you have balanced things very well. In other words that you have overstimulated (built up too much fatigue/exceeded recovery) and that you haven't understimulated (self explanatory, I hope). Definitely something to go for but I doubt many of us will be able to manage things quite so expertly .
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Old 09-26-2007, 12:35 AM   #46
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Yes, assuming that you really do have fatigue and need a backoff. That doesn't mean that while you begin the backoff and begin to build back up that you can't also go for an actual new PR. In other words if you feel like you can do it, do it. Whatever you do for Monday's workout, whether it is to reduce something or to add to it, the idea is to maintain or re-establish the ability to make PR's on Friday.

Rip has some basic criteria in PP of what to look for and how to react. I think for most they'll simply find monday being stalled AND no PR's on Friday so a reduction in monday would be needed. But if you are making progress on Monday with no PR's then you probably need to do more on Monday (I will of course concede that PR's may not be made until after the build up period that most will want to do).

It's going to be pretty difficult for most to know exactly what to do in order to always make PR's. But I also don't think there is any need for perfection. If you go throught with it as long as you can and for most of it you're making some forward progress on Monday and you're making PR's for a good percentage of the time but not necessarily all the time....you're going to come out at the end stronger. Making consistent PR's really means that you have balanced things very well. In other words that you have overstimulated (built up too much fatigue/exceeded recovery) and that you haven't understimulated (self explanatory, I hope). Definitely something to go for but I doubt many of us will be able to manage things quite so expertly .
Thats one of the most informative post I have read in a long time.Thanks Eric
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Old 09-26-2007, 12:40 AM   #47
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26/9/07 Light Day

Squat 2x5 71kg
Press 5x5 35kg
Deadlift 1x5 115kg

Not a hard workout, press felt good and so did the deadlifts, opened up a nice cut on my shins too!! Ahh the joys of Deadlifing!!

Squats are still feeling weird I cant put my finger on it tho, they weren't hard really, maybe Im just overthinking them!! I tend to do that with most things haha
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Old 09-26-2007, 09:34 AM   #48
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Cool stuff Eric.

That stuff makes sense to me bro. Rip does a great job explaining this stuff in plain English in PP as well. Personally I've experienced both scenarios; stalling on Monday and Friday, as well as just stalling on Friday. The troubleshooting method fixed the problem in both cases.


I understand what you mean by seeing linear progress from MON to MON and FRI to FRI. All I was trying to emphasize is that ones ability to make a PR on Friday is linked to what type of load was used on Monday. You said it well here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric
Whatever you do for Monday's workout, whether it is to reduce something or to add to it, the idea is to maintain or re-establish the ability to make PR's on Friday.
Monday's load often determines preparedness on Friday, depending on a few things. A stimulating load will spur a PR if fatigue isn't a problem, while a retaining load can also allow a PR if fatigue was a problem (Marv's case). A detraining load, on the other hand, will lead to a decrease in preparedness and thus a reduction on PR day.

Anyways, you can see I find this crap interesting. I'd like to have the experience one day to be able to apply things better. You've got the book smarts and the experience, so it's cool to read your stuff mate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric
Cool Jeff. I think that you are so smart about this stuff you may be out-thinking yourself.
Well, that might be a bit too generous , but thanks for the complement.

Cheers,
Jeff


Hey Hops, we all have good days and bad days in the rack. One thing you might want to check is your bar positioning. It is low enough or has it made its way towards you neck over the last little while? Just a thought.
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Old 09-26-2007, 11:15 PM   #49
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Hey Hops, we all have good days and bad days in the rack. One thing you might want to check is your bar positioning. It is low enough or has it made its way towards you neck over the last little while? Just a thought.
Hey Jeff,Na my bar pos is pretty good, funny thing is I reviewed the footage of my squat sessions (yes Im a sad loser who videos every squat session so he can keep his form honest!) on Mon and wed and I think they were spot on!! lol, my back was tight and hip drive was good.I think I may be overthinking them as I mentioned before, also not having the mirror there now makes squatting a whole new experience.

BTW we've been spending alot of time talking about my training, hows yours going mate!! hope all is well and the backs ok

Cheers Mate
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:12 PM   #50
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I'd avoid the mirror. It gives you inaccurate feedback as to body position. Leads to that overthinking you're talking about.

Really good call on the bar position question, Jeff. That could make a huge difference if one were inconsistent.
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