Eric3237

Well it was written as 5x5, which normally means 5x5 same weight ("sets accross" I like to call it now). I think you shoud try to start with 5x5 but I think you're allowed to play with it.

Eric3237's Sig:

"Not everyone trains for strength": True. Not everyone one is smart either. Personally, I'm training to be an olympic sprinter so I can have big legs. I also like to move huge boulders because I like the way they look over there...

Kane

Goodluck with DFHT. At times it can be a handfull, definitely not for the faint of heart.

I would keep all your sets the same, no ramping on this one. The only time there would be any kind of ramping would be on your ME days if you're gunning for a 5RM or something.

BUT just because the program says 5RM doesn't mean you can't do a 3x5 or a 5x5 on some days. Back when I did my first run I did 5RM's everytime and 0311 told me that this is all about what you can do on THAT specific day. So if you feel like shit, go for a 5x5 instead of shitting a brick going for a 5RM, you can even go for a 3x5 if you want a little more intensity than the 5x5.

Kane's Sig:

Bench:275 [1x1]
Deadlift:365 [1x3]
A2G Squat:255 [1x3]

"Shut up and squat!"

"NO, this is my squat rack. Go get your own!"

Eric3237

Yeah. Keep in mind that the idea is agressive loading. It won't do you any good if the volume is so much that you're just crapping out so that's one thing. Another thing is if you try manage it too much because fatigue is too high and you back off too much, depending on your work tolerance you could be recovering to the point that you're making this a weekly cycle rather than a 3 or 4 week cycle, whatever it is. I don't think there is much chance of that and I guess it would only mean a longer loading period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kane I did my first run I did 5RM's everytime and 0311 told me that this is all about what you can do on THAT specific day. So if you feel like shit, go for a 5x5 instead of shitting a brick going for a 5RM, you can even go for a 3x5 if you want a little more intensity than the 5x5.

LOL, I actually don't understand the logic here, Kane. I don’t know what 0311 meant exactly. Even though a 5RM is more intense, 5x5 sets accross take much more out of you, causes much more fatigue and takes longer to recover from. I think what may mix you up is that it takes a little longer for the effects to set in.

Heck this is exactly the logic behind a novice going to ramped sets, i.e. a top set of 5 coming off of a beginner's program where he has really managed to up the intensity a lot in a fairly short time. His recovery has improved but his intensity would still outstrip it. Combine that newfound intenstiy with more volume and he would just peter out very quickly and fail to make progress.

The 5x5 sets across, even when your building up is high intensity. This is something I didn't fully grasp until recently. You measure the intensity of the top set of a ramp up, that's how we usually think of it. But to be realistic you have to consider the average intensity. Sure it’s very possible that if you have cycle back the intensity than that 5x5 will be less intense than a top set of 5 or a ramped set that represents you relative 5RM. But all things being equal 5x5 sets across are always going to be higher average intensity. You always have to consider total volume.

Take a guy whose 1RM is 280 lbs.

Say he does a ramped set with fairly wide intervals working up to 250.

So he does 150, 175, 200, 225, 250. That’s 5000 lbs total. Now the top set MAYBE was around 80% of 1RM or a little lower. That’s his relative max at that time.

But the average weight used is 5000/25 reps which equals 200 lbs. That divided by 280 equals 71…meaning his average intensity was 71%.

Now say he does 225x5 SETS ACROSS. That’s 5625 lbs. Already the workload is much more. So average weight of 225/280 = 80% average intensity. This was HARDER. This will take longer to recover from.

Even 215x5 sets across gives you a higher average intensity. This is all rather intuitive but when you do the numbers it becomes pretty obvious. I’m not saying it’s all about numbers. What I AM saying is that for a guy like you, TALO, coming off of doing the weekly 5x5 where you did ramped sets the 5x5 sets across will kick your ass compared to doing a 5RM or 3RM or whatver. THAT would actually represent a light day, not the other way around. When I say light I mean less stressful. That or cutting back the sets like Kane mentioned. Theres a reason why the loading part of the advanced 5x5 used sets across, after all. If you don’t want to think about it in terms of intensity think about it in terms of stress.

I'm not saying how to run the program. I'll leave that to 0311 and Kane. I think there is a very concrete reason why the first upper and lower have less flexibility mentioned in it than the second ones. I.E. the first ones should stimulate the biggest response and the second ones keep things moving and train the neural part without kicking your ass to the point that you shut down right off the bat given all the other volume. So this allows the individual to tailor the week while loading. At least that is how I would tend to look at it. Just thoughts thought as I haven't run the program and 0311 knows Matt Reynolds personally .

Eric3237's Sig:

"Not everyone trains for strength": True. Not everyone one is smart either. Personally, I'm training to be an olympic sprinter so I can have big legs. I also like to move huge boulders because I like the way they look over there...

Kane

The logic (as far as I understand it) is that the ME days (ie 5RM bench and floor press) are treated like a PL day. So basically you want to smash some heavy weights and bring up your strength as much as possible. To me, doing a new 5RM every week is alot harder than doing a 5x5 every week. Not to say that you're wrong in any way Eric, that's just how I see it based on my experience with the program. Whether 0311 meant it like that is another thing

Here are the links to what I was referring to on backing off to a 5x5 or 3x5:

http://www.bodybuilding.net/personal...html#post21432

http://www.bodybuilding.net/personal...html#post21813

Kane's Sig:

Bench:275 [1x1]
Deadlift:365 [1x3]
A2G Squat:255 [1x3]

"Shut up and squat!"

"NO, this is my squat rack. Go get your own!"

TALO

So each week do you increase you 5RM by 2 - 5% depending on how it feels ?
I will be keeping the weights the same for the ME days. Thanks for the info.

TALO's Sig:

"But when do you actually grow? Well, we don't grow in the gym. In the gym, we destroy. We tear down the body. We only grow when we are recovering. That's right, I said recovery. I see it all the time--people beating themselves up in the gym and not seeing results. They don't understand that hitting the weights hard is only a small part of growing or even cutting down. I could train the same all year round and get big or get ripped just by eating different and taking different supplements"

Eric3237

TALO, could you list out the whole program the way you'd planned it? Cuz, lol, I'm thoroughly confused. Is this the program from the first page of the DFT sticky? If so if that was the ME day what's the other day? It looks like an RE day to me.

From what I can see the RE day, the day with your JS rows, is primarily straight sets but whether you ramp them or not it would make no sense to fool around with changing it up.

Then on ME days it gives you the option of going for whatever maxes, etc. I think Kane and I are talking about two different days. However, again, what I don't see is using sets across as a "back off". If you're ragged as hell from monday, I don't get it. And it's not about being able to get your real maximums so if your tired then do something else. You'll never be hitting anything but a max relative to this program and that's all you need to do.

I hope you don't mind I'm trying to make sense of this. It shoud provide some benefit.

Finding 5RM harder (i.e. more taxing) than 5x5 sets accross is a first to me. I can do maxes all day compared to that. Heck, may as well use maxes for loading weeks and the higher volume for deloading...more intensity, for me, does not automaticall mean more taxing. Not when your talking one heavy set. That heavy set is only relative max based on what is left in you after what comes before it. And even then it's more taxing than to try finding a truer 5RM where your work up to it carefully. Which of course you shouldn't do in the context of preparing for a program or anything. That's what it's like in my experience.

The only thing I can think, Kane, is that when you say backing off you mean really backing off . Doing maxes is a very good way to bring up your strength or to maintain neural drive during something else but 5x5 sets accross provide a very profound stimulus and will definitely spur hugh strength gains in itself.

So what happened to this:

That sounds like what you need to know. I don't understand what all the "how you feel" talk is about. Either you can handle the frequency and loading or you can't. Seems to me if you can't then a shorter loading period would be in order and then next time try for a longer.

The only thing I can think is that when you say backing off you mean really backing off. Doing maxes is a very good way to bring up your strength or to maintain neural drive during something else but 5x5 sets accross provide a very profound stimulus and will definitely spur hugh strength gains in itself.

I'm sure 0311 will come in here and show me the errors in my thinking. But momma didn't raise no fool either

Eric3237's Sig:

"Not everyone trains for strength": True. Not everyone one is smart either. Personally, I'm training to be an olympic sprinter so I can have big legs. I also like to move huge boulders because I like the way they look over there...

TALO

Sorry Eric, I think I messed up, however, this is the one I'm talking about.

DFHT Training
Upper Body Workout One:
1./// Barbell Bench Press: (flat or incline, primarily wide grip, hypertrophy reps; ex. 4x10 with the same weight for each set)
2./// Dumbell Press (flat, incline, or decline for 3x8-12 same weight)
3./// Horizontal Lat Work (Barbell JS Rows, 5x5)
4./// Shoulders/ Traps (emphasis on medial delts - Shrugs, High Pulls, Dumbell Cleans, Lateral Raises, Shoulder Horn, Face Pulls – pick 1-2 exercises for 4-6 sets total)
5./// Tricep Extension (skull crushers, French presses, JM Presses, rolling dumbbell extensions, Tate Presses, Pushdowns – pick one exercise for 3x10-12)
6./// Biceps (1-2 exercises, 3-5 sets total)

Lower Body Workout One:
1./// Heavy Squats (butt to ankles, 5x5 working up each set to a 5rm, or try for a 3rm or even an occasional 1rm)
2./// Goodmornings (3x5 same weight or work up to 5rm)
3./// Pullthroughs (3-5 sets of 10-12, some arched back, some rounded back)
4./// Glute Ham Raises or Hamstring Curls followed by Leg Extensions (2 sets each)
-or-
4./// Leg Presses (3-4 sets of 10-12) –or- Occasionally a Hack Squat (for 3-4x10-12)
5./// Weighted Abs/ Obliques (5x10 total – weighted situps, ab pulldowns on high cable or with bands, dumbbell side bends, etc.)
6./// Calves (most of you know what works best for your calves)

Upper Body Workout Two:
1./// Flat Barbell Bench Press (close or regular grip – heavy work 1rm, 3rm, 5rm, or 5x5)
2./// Board Press/ Floor Press (5rm usually start where you left off on bench press)
3./// Overhead Press (Standing military press, push press, dumbbell overhead press – various rep schemes – 5rm, 5x5, 4x10)
4./// Dips (2-3 sets)
5./// Vertical Lat Work (Lat Pulldowns or Pullups – 5+ sets – if on lat pulldown use different bars and work different planes)
6./// Tricep Extension ((skull crushers, French presses, JM Presses, rolling dumbbell extensions, Tate Presses, Pushdowns – pick one exercise for 3x10-12)
7./// Biceps (1-2 exercises, 3-5 sets total)

Lower Body Workout Two:
1./// Lighter Squats (back squats or front squats for 5x5 or 4x10 with the same weight)
2./// Deadlifts (conventional deadlifts or deadlifts standing on 2-3” box, mat, or 100lb plate - 1rm, 3rm, 5rm, or 3x5 same weight, )
3./// Pullthroughs (3-5 sets of 10-12, some arched back, some rounded back)
4./// Glute Ham Raises or Hamstring Curls followed by Leg Extensions (2 sets each)
5./// Weighted Hyperextensions (2-3x10-12 )
6./// Weighted Abs/ Obliques (5x10 total – weighted situps, ab pulldowns on high cable or with bands, dumbbell side bends, etc.)
6./// Calves (most of you know what works best for your calves)

TALO's Sig:

"But when do you actually grow? Well, we don't grow in the gym. In the gym, we destroy. We tear down the body. We only grow when we are recovering. That's right, I said recovery. I see it all the time--people beating themselves up in the gym and not seeing results. They don't understand that hitting the weights hard is only a small part of growing or even cutting down. I could train the same all year round and get big or get ripped just by eating different and taking different supplements"

Darkhorse

Your journal is back! Good luck with this!

Darkhorse's Sig:

Currently in perpetual madness....

Eric3237

Ok books are cleaned. Hopefully you remember what 0311 said, though .

I understand the idea there now since 0311 EXPLAINED IT so I don't want that to be stricken from the record.

I wasn't really talking about running the ME days any other way than what is listed in the program, btw. Didn't want you to think I was muddying the waters unecessarily.

Eric3237's Sig:

"Not everyone trains for strength": True. Not everyone one is smart either. Personally, I'm training to be an olympic sprinter so I can have big legs. I also like to move huge boulders because I like the way they look over there...