Originally Posted by 0311

Damn bro! Don't SD before your 5x5. The only thing I'd SD for would strictly be HST because of being so far away from your RM. The beauty of the 5x5 is that you can undershoot slightly for a few weeks, then continue progression, oftentimes past where you left off..And especially after DFHT phases which IMO compliment each other..

Originally Posted by 0311

If you were doing single factor 5x5, what was your reason for a 2 week deload? Just didn't have any personal time for the gym? Or did you feel you really needed a prolonged break? If you're really at the limit busting your ass on your final week of 5x5, then I can definately see a deload just to get your sanity back. In regards to your 5 RM, you could've just had a bad day (diet, sleep, ect). .

Originally Posted by 0311

My advice is to reset your DFHT and go for a flat bench of 5 x 5 or even 3 x 3. That's really the goal of the program IMO. After a few weeks of doing that rep range, you can definately shoot for a new 1, 3, or 5 RM. I remember Reynold's recommendations said, "or the occational 5 RM, or even 1 RM". To me, that means just doing the 5 x 5 for a few weeks, and if by chance one day you walk into the gym feeling high and mighty, fucking ride it out and try for a new RM..

Originally Posted by 0311

Too much deloading IMO. It IS dependant on individual recovery, but unless you're benching 350, squatting 400, and deadlifting 500 week in and week out on TOP of all that volume, you really don't need all those deloads, nor a short loading phase for that matter. Most average lifters with average recovery IMO could probably push 4 weeks of loading easy before needing a deload. I think Matt was covering his ass in his article by saying to always start off with 1-2 loading, then deload to see how you feel. There's really no telling how many newbs were reading that article who have no idea how to tell if they're overreaching or not.

Originally Posted by Eric3237

Good luck on this. I don't know if your planning on just blasting this over and over or going back to the 5x5. Now on that I know you did what was necessary to your schedule but I'd like to point out that the 5x5 you ran and the DFHT need not be viewed as two separarte things with the 5x5 just some thing you do.

It could fit into an accumulation and intensification set-up so you might have a week of peaking/deloading and then the 5x5 where the first few weeks should be like a vacation. But your recovery ability should be through the roof and I guarantee you should be able to improve past all your maxes significantly. So in other words you have that fitness you gained through accumulation and then you use the single factor 5x5 to display that fitness and generate higher levels of intensity. In some ways this could even be better that loading/unloading continuously. This is just to expand on what 0311 said about DFHT complimenting the 5x5. In fact they are both complimetary to each other when before you were looking at SF 5X5 as "something to do cuz it's a good program". Of course there are many things you could do.

I know none of this may help you now but I only say it to suggest a way of thinking. That is thinking about all your training as a continuum, not as "this program that program".

Originally Posted by Kane

1 big Loading phase (4-6 weeks), a short deloading phase and then the 5x5.

Originally Posted by Eric3237

I'm glad 0311 understands the shit I say even though he says it better. Just remember the key is manageable weights at the beginning. If you get egotistical you destroy the whole point.

Originally Posted by Glenn Pendlay

There seem to be a lot of people who do the style of training we usually can "5 by 5" for a while, then wonder "whats next".

One general comment i would make, is that if this style of training has been successful for you, why change it? And by style of training, I’m not talking about one specific program, but the general style of doing whole body exercises, training the whole body or at least most of the body in each workout, and doing multiple sets not taken to failure.

I do, however, understand the mental side... you do the same thing over and over and you want something different. There are lots of ways you can change things without totally changing to a "new" program. Switching back and forth between widely differing types of training isn’t that good of an idea... small and systematic changes over time in what you are doing however IS a good idea.

for instance... say you’ve been squatting 3 times a week. How about changing one of the workouts to front squat, hell you could change 2 of the workouts to front squat. I hate leg presses, but if you really wanted to, you could squat on monday, front squat on wednesday, and leg press on friday!!! If you’ve been doing only rows for back, change one or two of the workouts to chinups... substitute stiff legged deadlifts for deadlifts, change mondays workout to 3 sets of 8 for a month, change fridays squat or bench workout to 5 singles, etc, etc, etc.

I’ve even seen people who after a while on a 3 day a week program, switched to a 4 day split, doing squats and pressing exercises on monday and thursday, back and pulling exercises on wed and saturday. I don’t see this as retreating from the principles of the 5 by 5 at all. You are STILL working your whole body, or very nearly so, every training day. Squats work the back, they work everything... and deadlifts or stiff legged deadlifts work the legs, not as much as squats, but they still work them. This is in fact the favored program of mike stone, probably the best ex phys guy on the planet and former head of sports science at the olympic training center.

The main thing is to go about it in a systematic way.

One of my lifters, josh wells, who made the junior world team in 2004 in weightlifting, and can jerk close to 400lbs weighing around 180lbs as a teenager, did this program about a year ago in his "off season" to try to gain some general strength.

monday, squats (5 sets of 3), push presses (3 sets of 5) then glute ham raises or reverse hypers

wednesday, snatch pulls (5 sets of 2), powercleans (5 sets of 2), chinups (5 sets of 10 with extra weight, hanging from a 2" bar)

thursday, front squats (6 sets of 2), push jerks (5 sets of 2), military press (3 sets of 5), then glute ham raises or reverse hypers.

saturday, powersnatches (5 sets of 2), clean pulls (5 sets of 5), barbell rows, (5 sets of 5)

obviously this is geared toward olympic weightlifting, and not really what most of you would be doing. I’m not sure many here have that much interest in doing so many snatch and clean pulls. And he’s using lower reps, because of course for him strength is a bigger deal than size, but even his reps changed over time, sometimes were higher, sometimes lower. This is just as representative of the 5 by 5 training style as the simpler 3 day programs... because we did it systematically, sets across instead of failure, gradually moving the weights up, gradually adding then subtracting volume of training to force the body to adapt


the important thing is to think thru the changes, don’t make too many at one time, but make them slowly and steadily.

The real value of the "5 by 5" style of training isn’t that it can or will add a certain amount of muscle or strength in an 8 week cycle. The real value is that it is a framework that when used right can work for years, slowly changing and morphing along the way to fit itself to your particular goals, and making for steady progress for 3, 4, or more years. It is more than anything, a mindset. a mindset of writing your workouts down, being systematic, knowing what you are going to do before you go to the gym, having a plan, and knowing that 5lbs a month is 60lbs a year and 180lbs in 3 years.

and more than that it is a mindset of THINKING, thinking about training, and rejecting the latest and greatest thing that forces many, even most, to run from one program to the next, changing things totally every time they get bored or have a bad workout. By recording everything, thinking a lot, planning, making small changes instead of wholesale ones, going back and looking at your workout log and looking at the last month, 6 months, year, etc, and planning the next month... within a year or two you know more about your body and what to do than me or anyone else could ever tell you.

Now... last comment. I have, in a big drawer, a record of every single workout i have ever done, from the time I was 15 back in 1975 to my last month of competitive training in 2003. Every single one. I also have descriptions and comments, tables in the back of the logs that showed weight gain and strength gain on a yearly basis, monthly, etc. comments on what happened to weight/strength when I changed exercises, changed reps, etc. there is very little I don’t know about how my body responded, what worked and what didn’t, etc. you all should do the same thing. Approach training like a scientist working an experiment.