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Kane's DFHT (Courtesy of 0311 once again)

Personal Journals discussion on Kane's DFHT (Courtesy of 0311 once again), within the Members Section; After doing DFHT I deloaded and did a run at the SF 5x5, now I'm back for more DFHT. This ...


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Old 10-30-2006, 09:28 PM   #11
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Default Kane's Back For Round 2

After doing DFHT I deloaded and did a run at the SF 5x5, now I'm back for more DFHT. This time I know a bit more about how I will respond, how to increase the weights, etc. which means I should have some good results coming my way.

I've already done 1 week of loading, starting week 2. Here are my results from week 1:

Workout One: RE DAY
1./// Incline Barbell: 4 x 10 135
2./// JS Rows: 5 x 5 185
3./// Decline DB Press: 3 x 8-12 50
4./// Face Pulls: 2 x 10 105
5./// Upright Rows: 2 x 10 95
6./// One-Handed Pushdowns: 3 x 12 30
7./// Incline Curls: 3 x 10 30
8./// Hammer Curls: 1 x 15-25 15

Workout Two: ME DAY
1./// A2G Squats: 5 RM 175
2./// Goodmornings: 3 x 5 95
3./// Pullthroughs: 3 x 12 105
4./// Hamstring Curls: 2 x 10 105
5./// Leg Extensions: 2 x 10 75
6./// Weighted Abs/ Obliques A: 5 x 10 95
7./// Calves 195

Workout Three: ME DAY
1./// Flat Bench: 5 RM 185
2./// Floor Press: 5 RM 205
3./// Seated Military Press: 3 x 5 95
4./// Weighted Dips (Machine): 2 x 10 BW
5./// Pulldowns (Wide): 2 x 10 150
6./// Pulldowns (Medium): 2 x 10 160
7./// Skullcrushers: 3 x 10 75
8./// Barbell Curls: 3 x 10 75

Workout Four: RE DAY
1./// A2G Back Squats 4x10 155
2./// Platform Deadlifts: 5 RM 275
3./// DB Swings: 3 x 12 40
4./// Hamstring Curls: 1 x 8-10 110
5./// Leg Extensions: 1 x 20 30
6./// Weighted Hyperextensions: 2 x 10 25
7./// Weighted Abs/ Obliques B: 5 x 10 100
8./// Calves 200

Workout 1:
Went fairly well, I decided to keep the weights manageable so I can focus more on handling the volume....they weren't too light though, still somewhat of a challenge on the whole

Workout 2:
Went really light because I've been having a bit of a problem with my left quad (nothing serious). I've been playing alot of intense sports and its more overuse than anything, but I still dont want to tear anything like I did last year. Weights will be increasing however, I'm scheduling my workouts so my legs won't be fatigued going into the workout.

Workout 3:
My bench is way the fuck down there, kinda disappointing. I did a 3 week sd before the 5x5 and then 2 weeks deload after that, so I'm attributing my lack of pressing power to the massive sd'ing/deloading I did. Energy just wasn't there for a solid 5RM, so I did a few extra sets on bench and floor press afterwards with a reduced weight.

Workout 4:
Deads are still looking good, I'm looking forward to getting into some high numbers (300+). Pretty intense workout overall I must say.

Just so everyone knows what I'm looking to do as far as goals go.

Short-term (Christmas):
Weigh 190lbs
245+ 5RM Bench
265+ 5RM A2G
290+ 5RM Deads
135+ 3x5 Military Press

Long-term (April):
Weigh 200lbs
300+ 1RM Bench
300+ 1RM A2G
300+ 5RM Deads
Be A Fucking Animal


Here's my diet, I won't go into specifics of what I eat daily because that would take too fucking long.

5000-5500 calories
350-400g Protein
100g Fat
550-600g Carbs

1 Shake Pro-Lab N-Large2 Pre Workout
1 Shake Pro-Lab Advanced Whey Post Workout & 15 Min Post Post Workout
1 Shake Pro-Lab Advanced Whey Nightly approx. 3-4am
5g (roughly) Pro-Lab Creatine Mono Daily

And there you have it. I'm planning on running for a 3-5 week loading phase, 1-2 week deload, 2-3 week loading, 1-2 week deload, 1-2 week loading, 2 week deload, switch programs.

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Old 10-30-2006, 10:48 PM   #12
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There he is! Where the fuck you been?

----

Quote:
Workout One: RE DAY
1./// Incline Barbell: 4 x 10 135
2./// JS Rows: 5 x 5 185
3./// Decline DB Press: 3 x 8-12 50
4./// Face Pulls: 2 x 10 105
5./// Upright Rows: 2 x 10 95
6./// One-Handed Pushdowns: 3 x 12 30
7./// Incline Curls: 3 x 10 30
8./// Hammer Curls: 1 x 15-25 15
I'm surprised you aren't bored yet with running the same loading exercises. It's up to you. I used to prefer switching it up every loading phase to prevent adaptation. Something like:

1. Decline Barbell
2. JS Rows
3. Low Incline DB
..Ect..

Also, to save on time, and is what I prefer doing, try doing a continuous circuit with your arms. Since you're already using the high pulley for one handed pressdowns, why not use the other handle and attach it to the low pulley. Doing one arm at a time should allow you to superset with minimal rest. Example:

1. Right handed pressdown
2. Left handed pressdown
3. Right handed curl
4. Left handed curl
* Rest 20-30 seconds before resetting

Quote:
Workout 3:
My bench is way the fuck down there, kinda disappointing. I did a 3 week sd before the 5x5 and then 2 weeks deload after that, so I'm attributing my lack of pressing power to the massive sd'ing/deloading I did. Energy just wasn't there for a solid 5RM, so I did a few extra sets on bench and floor press afterwards with a reduced weight.
Damn bro! Don't SD before your 5x5. The only thing I'd SD for would strictly be HST because of being so far away from your RM. The beauty of the 5x5 is that you can undershoot slightly for a few weeks, then continue progression, oftentimes past where you left off..And especially after DFHT phases which IMO compliment each other.

If you were doing single factor 5x5, what was your reason for a 2 week deload? Just didn't have any personal time for the gym? Or did you feel you really needed a prolonged break? If you're really at the limit busting your ass on your final week of 5x5, then I can definately see a deload just to get your sanity back. In regards to your 5 RM, you could've just had a bad day (diet, sleep, ect).

My advice is to reset your DFHT and go for a flat bench of 5 x 5 or even 3 x 3. That's really the goal of the program IMO. After a few weeks of doing that rep range, you can definately shoot for a new 1, 3, or 5 RM. I remember Reynold's recommendations said, "or the occational 5 RM, or even 1 RM". To me, that means just doing the 5 x 5 for a few weeks, and if by chance one day you walk into the gym feeling high and mighty, fucking ride it out and try for a new RM.

Quote:
And there you have it. I'm planning on running for a 3-5 week loading phase, 1-2 week deload, 2-3 week loading, 1-2 week deload, 1-2 week loading, 2 week deload, switch programs.
Too much deloading IMO. It IS dependant on individual recovery, but unless you're benching 350, squatting 400, and deadlifting 500 week in and week out on TOP of all that volume, you really don't need all those deloads, nor a short loading phase for that matter. Most average lifters with average recovery IMO could probably push 4 weeks of loading easy before needing a deload. I think Matt was covering his ass in his article by saying to always start off with 1-2 loading, then deload to see how you feel. There's really no telling how many newbs were reading that article who have no idea how to tell if they're overreaching or not.

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Old 10-31-2006, 10:43 PM   #13
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I've still been around, quietly moving behind the scenes

I'm planning on switching up the exercises every loading phase for the reasons you said...for now this set of exercises still does it for me and I'll definitely be using your idea for supersetting arms, it will save a shitload if time IMO, good suggestion bro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311 View Post
Damn bro! Don't SD before your 5x5. The only thing I'd SD for would strictly be HST because of being so far away from your RM. The beauty of the 5x5 is that you can undershoot slightly for a few weeks, then continue progression, oftentimes past where you left off..And especially after DFHT phases which IMO compliment each other..
The SD was because I was moving back to school and wouldn't have any place to workout....It was technically just time off that happened to start when my DFHT ended. I just called it SD because it was zero gym time and I couldnt think of anything else to call it hahahaha. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311 View Post
If you were doing single factor 5x5, what was your reason for a 2 week deload? Just didn't have any personal time for the gym? Or did you feel you really needed a prolonged break? If you're really at the limit busting your ass on your final week of 5x5, then I can definately see a deload just to get your sanity back. In regards to your 5 RM, you could've just had a bad day (diet, sleep, ect). .
The 2 week deload was because I didn't have the time to do DFHT and I was pretty smoked from the 5x5, so I wanted to just fart around and do something that I could fit into my schedule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311 View Post
My advice is to reset your DFHT and go for a flat bench of 5 x 5 or even 3 x 3. That's really the goal of the program IMO. After a few weeks of doing that rep range, you can definately shoot for a new 1, 3, or 5 RM. I remember Reynold's recommendations said, "or the occational 5 RM, or even 1 RM". To me, that means just doing the 5 x 5 for a few weeks, and if by chance one day you walk into the gym feeling high and mighty, fucking ride it out and try for a new RM..
I was thinking about turning the 5RM into a 5x5, 3x5, 3x3, or a 5x5 with a close progression, something like 180, 185, 190, 195, 200 for example. For some reason adding that extra 5lbs on after a set clears my head, but like you said, depending on how I'm feeling I could do any of those options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311 View Post
Too much deloading IMO. It IS dependant on individual recovery, but unless you're benching 350, squatting 400, and deadlifting 500 week in and week out on TOP of all that volume, you really don't need all those deloads, nor a short loading phase for that matter. Most average lifters with average recovery IMO could probably push 4 weeks of loading easy before needing a deload. I think Matt was covering his ass in his article by saying to always start off with 1-2 loading, then deload to see how you feel. There's really no telling how many newbs were reading that article who have no idea how to tell if they're overreaching or not.
I think its alot of deloading too, but I threw it in just in case I need it kinda thing. If I come to the end of my "planned" loading phase and still have a shitload of gas in the tank, I'll keep going. The other thing I was thinking too was that I have 6-10 weeks of loading from my makeshift schedule, and since the intensity is going to go up fairly quickly, if I add 5lbs to an exercise every week....thats 30-50lbs of progression. Taking bench for example, would mean that 185 for week 1 means 235 for week 10....that was my thinking behind the short loading phases. Blast the shit out of myself, deload to regroup my forces, blast, regroup, blast etc., thinking that I would have a better shot at hitting my progressions consistently.


As always I appreciate the input Big Guy...I'll be sure to pick your brain as I get further into the loading phases
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Old 11-01-2006, 06:57 AM   #14
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Good luck on this. I don't know if your planning on just blasting this over and over or going back to the 5x5. Now on that I know you did what was necessary to your schedule but I'd like to point out that the 5x5 you ran and the DFHT need not be viewed as two separarte things with the 5x5 just some thing you do.

It could fit into an accumulation and intensification set-up so you might have a week of peaking/deloading and then the 5x5 where the first few weeks should be like a vacation. But your recovery ability should be through the roof and I guarantee you should be able to improve past all your maxes significantly. So in other words you have that fitness you gained through accumulation and then you use the single factor 5x5 to display that fitness and generate higher levels of intensity. In some ways this could even be better that loading/unloading continuously. This is just to expand on what 0311 said about DFHT complimenting the 5x5. In fact they are both complimetary to each other when before you were looking at SF 5X5 as "something to do cuz it's a good program". Of course there are many things you could do.

I know none of this may help you now but I only say it to suggest a way of thinking. That is thinking about all your training as a continuum, not as "this program that program".

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 11-01-2006, 08:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
Good luck on this. I don't know if your planning on just blasting this over and over or going back to the 5x5. Now on that I know you did what was necessary to your schedule but I'd like to point out that the 5x5 you ran and the DFHT need not be viewed as two separarte things with the 5x5 just some thing you do.

It could fit into an accumulation and intensification set-up so you might have a week of peaking/deloading and then the 5x5 where the first few weeks should be like a vacation. But your recovery ability should be through the roof and I guarantee you should be able to improve past all your maxes significantly. So in other words you have that fitness you gained through accumulation and then you use the single factor 5x5 to display that fitness and generate higher levels of intensity. In some ways this could even be better that loading/unloading continuously. This is just to expand on what 0311 said about DFHT complimenting the 5x5. In fact they are both complimetary to each other when before you were looking at SF 5X5 as "something to do cuz it's a good program". Of course there are many things you could do.

I know none of this may help you now but I only say it to suggest a way of thinking. That is thinking about all your training as a continuum, not as "this program that program".

Thanks Eric. So if I was to use the 5x5 to compliment my DFHT, what would you suggest as far as a timeline goes? ie. 1 big Loading phase (4-6 weeks), a short deloading phase and then the 5x5.

I know my DFHT and 5x5 run was half assed because of my schedule and shit. Now that I know what each program takes, I'd like to use that to my advantage and use them to get the most gains possible.
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Old 11-01-2006, 09:10 AM   #16
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Well keep in mind that I am not pushing single factor over dual or anything like that just trying to dispell this thing of looking at them as mutually exclusive. As far as a timeline 0311 is the man to speak on that but I agree with what he basically said of at least 4 weeks. To me you need to strike a balance and no matter where you are if you push to hard in terms of blasting and going balls to the wall what you've may accomplish is simply a performance regression but not much overall fatigue. I don't know if this makes sense but it's the only way I can explain it.

But, yes, IMO (and subject to reviewal by 0311) a short deloading phase and then a conservative start at the 5x5. That in itself should allow a lot of recovery to take place.

In general it seems to me if done right there is no reason that the 5x5 shouldn't end with shattering all your records.
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Old 11-01-2006, 01:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane
1 big Loading phase (4-6 weeks), a short deloading phase and then the 5x5.
That would work. Remember that after the deload week, you're starting off the 5 x 5 with managable weights, thereby indirectly extending your deloading by another week as Eric already pointed out.

For the DFHT, I recommend sticking with a 5 x 5 setup for bench on Upper #2. As the week's progress, and you feel up to it, throw in a 3 x 3, 1-5 RM, ect. If you're doing a 1-5 RM, I recommend doing a drop set after hitting your RM. Not immediately after, but a few minutes after. Keep it heavy enough to limit you to about 5-7 reps.
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Old 11-01-2006, 02:22 PM   #18
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I'm glad 0311 understands the shit I say even though he says it better. Just remember the key is manageable weights at the beginning. If you get egotistical you destroy the whole point.
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Old 11-01-2006, 07:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
I'm glad 0311 understands the shit I say even though he says it better. Just remember the key is manageable weights at the beginning. If you get egotistical you destroy the whole point.
I think I understood what you posted. 0311's explanation definitely clarified everything

After I do my loading and quick deload, I'll try and pick some manageable weights and make sure I stick to a set weight increment. So every week I'll increase by say 5-10 lbs regardless of how strong I'm feeling. So if I'm scheduled to do 185 on bench and I feel I can do 225 no problem, I'll keep it at 185.

Stupid Question(s)

How do I pick my weights for the 5x5? Should I start with something close to what I did in week 1 for DFHT, do I just guesstimate what I can do and adjust accordingy?? The weights should be manageable but not pussy weights right?

And How long should I plan on running the 5x5 for? I was assuming I run it until I stall on the progression.

What should I plan on doing after the 5x5? Do I go back to DFHT, rerun the 5x5 and try and hit more maxes, do something else, or should I wait and think about that when I get closer to that time?

Sorry for the bombard of questions but it seems like I've been bouncing from routine to routine without a definite long term strategy and I'd like to get my shit together a bit better and make some even more serious gains.
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:26 AM   #20
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How do I pick my weights for the 5x5? Should I start with something close to what I did in week 1 for DFHT, do I just guesstimate what I can do and adjust accordingy?? The weights should be manageable but not pussy weights right?
I'd go off of what you did for your 5 x 5 for DFHT. If you did something like 200 lbs for DFHT and it very difficult, then I'd put that into your 5 x 5 week 3. I wouldn't "pussify" the weights too much for your first week though. Maybe something like this:

DFHT- Flat Bench: 185 (5 x 5) [Very tough to get through]
* Deload

Bill Starr's 5 x 5- Flat Bench
- Week One: 155 (5 x 5)
- Week Two: 175 (5 x 5)
- Week Three: 185 (5 x 5)
- Week Four: 190-195 (5 x 5)
* Deload

Bill Starr's program is such a good program, and it'll most likely help you reach a new PR for week 4-5. If it's still too much for you, then hold it over for week 4, then add 5 lbs and beat it for week 5. Small increments go a long way!

Quote:
And How long should I plan on running the 5x5 for? I was assuming I run it until I stall on the progression.
You're talking about dual factor 5 x 5 right? That's the one you should be running. No more than 4 weeks LOADING, 1 deload, then I HIGHLY recommend incorperating the intensity phase (3 x 3, 1 x 3). I grew very nicely during the tail end of the deload all the way through the intensity phase. Hands down the funnest three weeks of the program! Plus, in order to hit your goals, the intensity phase is vital!

Quote:
What should I plan on doing after the 5x5? Do I go back to DFHT, rerun the 5x5 and try and hit more maxes, do something else, or should I wait and think about that when I get closer to that time?
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. To quote Glenn Pendlay:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn Pendlay
There seem to be a lot of people who do the style of training we usually can "5 by 5" for a while, then wonder "whats next".

One general comment i would make, is that if this style of training has been successful for you, why change it? And by style of training, Iím not talking about one specific program, but the general style of doing whole body exercises, training the whole body or at least most of the body in each workout, and doing multiple sets not taken to failure.

I do, however, understand the mental side... you do the same thing over and over and you want something different. There are lots of ways you can change things without totally changing to a "new" program. Switching back and forth between widely differing types of training isnít that good of an idea... small and systematic changes over time in what you are doing however IS a good idea.

for instance... say youíve been squatting 3 times a week. How about changing one of the workouts to front squat, hell you could change 2 of the workouts to front squat. I hate leg presses, but if you really wanted to, you could squat on monday, front squat on wednesday, and leg press on friday!!! If youíve been doing only rows for back, change one or two of the workouts to chinups... substitute stiff legged deadlifts for deadlifts, change mondays workout to 3 sets of 8 for a month, change fridays squat or bench workout to 5 singles, etc, etc, etc.

Iíve even seen people who after a while on a 3 day a week program, switched to a 4 day split, doing squats and pressing exercises on monday and thursday, back and pulling exercises on wed and saturday. I donít see this as retreating from the principles of the 5 by 5 at all. You are STILL working your whole body, or very nearly so, every training day. Squats work the back, they work everything... and deadlifts or stiff legged deadlifts work the legs, not as much as squats, but they still work them. This is in fact the favored program of mike stone, probably the best ex phys guy on the planet and former head of sports science at the olympic training center.

The main thing is to go about it in a systematic way.

One of my lifters, josh wells, who made the junior world team in 2004 in weightlifting, and can jerk close to 400lbs weighing around 180lbs as a teenager, did this program about a year ago in his "off season" to try to gain some general strength.

monday, squats (5 sets of 3), push presses (3 sets of 5) then glute ham raises or reverse hypers

wednesday, snatch pulls (5 sets of 2), powercleans (5 sets of 2), chinups (5 sets of 10 with extra weight, hanging from a 2" bar)

thursday, front squats (6 sets of 2), push jerks (5 sets of 2), military press (3 sets of 5), then glute ham raises or reverse hypers.

saturday, powersnatches (5 sets of 2), clean pulls (5 sets of 5), barbell rows, (5 sets of 5)

obviously this is geared toward olympic weightlifting, and not really what most of you would be doing. Iím not sure many here have that much interest in doing so many snatch and clean pulls. And heís using lower reps, because of course for him strength is a bigger deal than size, but even his reps changed over time, sometimes were higher, sometimes lower. This is just as representative of the 5 by 5 training style as the simpler 3 day programs... because we did it systematically, sets across instead of failure, gradually moving the weights up, gradually adding then subtracting volume of training to force the body to adapt


the important thing is to think thru the changes, donít make too many at one time, but make them slowly and steadily.

The real value of the "5 by 5" style of training isnít that it can or will add a certain amount of muscle or strength in an 8 week cycle. The real value is that it is a framework that when used right can work for years, slowly changing and morphing along the way to fit itself to your particular goals, and making for steady progress for 3, 4, or more years. It is more than anything, a mindset. a mindset of writing your workouts down, being systematic, knowing what you are going to do before you go to the gym, having a plan, and knowing that 5lbs a month is 60lbs a year and 180lbs in 3 years.

and more than that it is a mindset of THINKING, thinking about training, and rejecting the latest and greatest thing that forces many, even most, to run from one program to the next, changing things totally every time they get bored or have a bad workout. By recording everything, thinking a lot, planning, making small changes instead of wholesale ones, going back and looking at your workout log and looking at the last month, 6 months, year, etc, and planning the next month... within a year or two you know more about your body and what to do than me or anyone else could ever tell you.

Now... last comment. I have, in a big drawer, a record of every single workout i have ever done, from the time I was 15 back in 1975 to my last month of competitive training in 2003. Every single one. I also have descriptions and comments, tables in the back of the logs that showed weight gain and strength gain on a yearly basis, monthly, etc. comments on what happened to weight/strength when I changed exercises, changed reps, etc. there is very little I donít know about how my body responded, what worked and what didnít, etc. you all should do the same thing. Approach training like a scientist working an experiment.
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