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Old 10-17-2008, 09:52 AM   #31
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Thanks Widdoes
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Old 10-17-2008, 10:27 AM   #32
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Kane..a suggestion for the hypertrophy work on rows plus lower back endurance.

Personally I think deloaded rows abslulutely suck for "lower back" and there are so many more direct and efficient means to get that.

I would highly recommend after doing your primary set switch to another row with support so that you can focus on the upper back rather than trying to kill two birds with one stone...which is a noble idea but not always the most productive, imho.

Then just do more core work. Planks, side planks (and various variations of those ), pallof press and other anti-rotation.

Remember that a big part of what we think of as lower back endurance is also abdominal endurance and stability. Basically trunk stability. And the rows really hardly engage the "stiffness" in this complete way.

There are lots of other things to do but I'll leave it at that for now.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 10-17-2008, 01:50 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
Kane..a suggestion for the hypertrophy work on rows plus lower back endurance.

Personally I think deloaded rows abslulutely suck for "lower back" and there are so many more direct and efficient means to get that.

I would highly recommend after doing your primary set switch to another row with support so that you can focus on the upper back rather than trying to kill two birds with one stone...which is a noble idea but not always the most productive, imho.

Then just do more core work. Planks, side planks (and various variations of those ), pallof press and other anti-rotation.

Remember that a big part of what we think of as lower back endurance is also abdominal endurance and stability. Basically trunk stability. And the rows really hardly engage the "stiffness" in this complete way.

There are lots of other things to do but I'll leave it at that for now.
My gym got rid of the good chest supported row machine and the new one they got is broken half the time because of idiots and noobs. So the only supported row I can think of being able to do is a dumbbell row, which isn't a bad option.

Are you saying I should be doing 1 set of deloaded rows and then maybe another 2-3 sets of supported ones? or 2-3 sets of deloaded and 1 supported? I'm not sure if you meant to say primary set or primary sets

I'll add in some planks and all that sort of fun at the end of the workout.

Thanks for the advice Eric.

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Old 10-17-2008, 01:55 PM   #34
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I literally meant, instead of:

Deloaded Rows
185x7, 180x7, 175x8, 145x10

For the last set of 10, what you called the hypertrophy" one, switch to one-arm dumbells, or cable rows (I didn't mean the chest had to always be literally supported), bench supported rows, head-supported rows (cressey..I don't like them personally but that's only because of my neck problem), etc.., so on.

I also like to do rows from different angles, etc..like high-low pulley rows, or low-high. Basically I find that a large rowing variety is friendly to the shoulders. You already have face-pulls and to me that counts as a rowing variety as well. Hell the the other day I just did a bunch of standing rows with a band for a different flavor (that was in addition to heavier rowing before). Given, though, I do a TON of pulling as compared to most people.

You know the whole deloaded row thing is a tool like anything else. The making it the be all and end all started with the propaganda of a relatively few people, and all of them associated

As far as lower back endurance, a non deloaded barbell row would seem to adress that better, imho.
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Old 10-17-2008, 03:27 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post

As far as lower back endurance, a non deloaded barbell row would seem to adress that better, imho.

i agree on that. you may not be able to go as heavy...but it definitely takes some endurance.
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Old 10-18-2008, 07:04 AM   #36
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is there a bench high enough at your gym that you could roll a barbell over too to do chest supported? i just elevate my bench until my hands just reach the barbell on the floor, and go from there.

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Old 10-18-2008, 02:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
I literally meant, instead of:

Deloaded Rows
185x7, 180x7, 175x8, 145x10

For the last set of 10, what you called the hypertrophy" one, switch to one-arm dumbells, or cable rows (I didn't mean the chest had to always be literally supported), bench supported rows, head-supported rows (cressey..I don't like them personally but that's only because of my neck problem), etc.., so on.

I also like to do rows from different angles, etc..like high-low pulley rows, or low-high. Basically I find that a large rowing variety is friendly to the shoulders. You already have face-pulls and to me that counts as a rowing variety as well. Hell the the other day I just did a bunch of standing rows with a band for a different flavor (that was in addition to heavier rowing before). Given, though, I do a TON of pulling as compared to most people.

You know the whole deloaded row thing is a tool like anything else. The making it the be all and end all started with the propaganda of a relatively few people, and all of them associated

As far as lower back endurance, a non deloaded barbell row would seem to adress that better, imho.

Ok we're on the same page now, I'll throw in something for that hypertrophy set next week.

Only reason I'm sticking with the deloaded rows is because they're my heaviest row right now and I'm progressing well with them. I didn't buy into the propaganda (I might have sold some though )

A non-deloaded row, for me, takes weight from the bar. I can't go as heavy as the deloaded ones (like Pity said) and I'd rather prioritize strength (on primary sets anyway). I think that I'll end up getting some more endurance from core work, rather than kill 2 birds with 1 stone (your words, not mine )
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Old 10-18-2008, 02:46 PM   #38
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is there a bench high enough at your gym that you could roll a barbell over too to do chest supported? i just elevate my bench until my hands just reach the barbell on the floor, and go from there.
I wish, they're all little dinky ones. But that is a great idea man.
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Old 10-18-2008, 02:50 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane
I didn't buy into the propagand
Oh, I know. You know I have this habit of throwing in those little tidbits for general consumption, lol.

I understand what you are saying about strength but you are assuming that "more weight" always means "better results". And that is not always true whether for strength OR hypertrophy.

Like I've said before..if you want to be a row champion you can worry more about just weight on the bar. But of course I know that is not what you want. The row is a tool. You have other movements that you consider the 'test of success' and the row is is just an ingredient...not one of the main dishes.

So think of deloaded rows like the spices in your pumpkin pie. Go too heavy on any one of them and the pie sucks. Sprinkle in a bit of each and you get the perfect flavor balance.

Whereas other things...that's the pumpkin.

There is always going to be the guy who continues to say that cinnamon is better than nutmeg of course. But he obviously doesn't know how to cook

Last edited by EricT; 10-18-2008 at 04:28 PM..
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Old 10-19-2008, 06:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
Oh, I know. You know I have this habit of throwing in those little tidbits for general consumption, lol.

I understand what you are saying about strength but you are assuming that "more weight" always means "better results". And that is not always true whether for strength OR hypertrophy.

Like I've said before..if you want to be a row champion you can worry more about just weight on the bar. But of course I know that is not what you want. The row is a tool. You have other movements that you consider the 'test of success' and the row is is just an ingredient...not one of the main dishes.

So think of deloaded rows like the spices in your pumpkin pie. Go too heavy on any one of them and the pie sucks. Sprinkle in a bit of each and you get the perfect flavor balance.

Whereas other things...that's the pumpkin.

There is always going to be the guy who continues to say that cinnamon is better than nutmeg of course. But he obviously doesn't know how to cook
I understand what you mean by 'more weight' not always meaning 'better results'. Weight on the bar is only one method of progression.

I like the analogy, but now I'm very hungry.
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