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Dorian Rows

Powerlifting discussion on Dorian Rows, within the Bodybuilding Forum; I like to think that I've mastered both of these (As much as a dope like me can master anything...I'm ...


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Old 05-26-2006, 05:04 AM   #11
kethnaab
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I like to think that I've mastered both of these (As much as a dope like me can master anything...I'm still trying to master working this here belt buckle..)

when I get back to the states and get myself unbroke, I'll post a video of me doing both of these the right way. A few points about both of the rows

Yates rows
1) - do 'em overhand or use a cambered curl bar to use an angled undergrip. I do them overhand. No loss
2) Pause the weight at your gut
3) Don't do these AFTER you deadlift. You'll die.
4) Force yourself to contract your lats as you bring the bar up. It requires immense concentration to make it work, but if you contract (and arch) your lats, the lat gets worked DAMN hard. It's quite obvious, having done these properly, why the hell Dorian's back looked like it did
5) This exercise WILL expose weaknesses. Traps weak? You'll know. Rear delts weak? You'll know. Spinal erectors weak? You'll know. Unless you have a very good base of strength, these will NOT work

JS (Pendlay) Rows

1) Do these. Do these as described. Deweight between reps. Keep body parallel to the ground. Explode weight upward. Just do these damn things and no whining.

2) Do these. They are phenominal. They don't work for you? Then you're doing them wrong. Practice untl you get them right, or suffer with your crappy back development

3) Did I mention that you should do these?
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Old 05-26-2006, 07:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kethnaab
JS (Pendlay) Rows
I'll be darned. You know I actually didn't know these were the same. It seems that the quote above (supposedly) is acually attributed to Pendlay and yet Macdow has his name in it so I can't be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendlay?
Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.

This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.

The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way.

I did rows with Coleman once, actually, and I was far stronger than he was. He could not do more than 350lbs strictly although he could do over 500lbs by standing almost all the way up at the completion of each rep. Ed Coan is probably the strongest person on these, although one power-lifter I trained did manage 525 for a double done strictly.

Rows look at an anatomy chart. if the scapula and upper arms are held in a constant position, shortening of the lats WILL result in arching of the middle and upper back. i AM NOT saying that the lats are primarily responsible for upper back flexion... what i am saying is that they can assist in this.

i also HAVE done EMG work on various different rowing techniques... and there is not doubt that rows performed as i describe them will activate the lats more completely than done any other way i have ever seen. i have done EMG work on a large quantity of people for rows... and ive always found that these kind of rows activate the lats most completely. and besides, even if you dont buy the fact that they activate the lats better, hell, you can always be content with the fact that your getting an erector workout.
It seems many people describe Pendlay rows as a "strict" bent over barbell row. That actually clears up a lot as far as getting the names straight.

Kethanaab you don't have to post a pic:



Isn't that you?

Last edited by EricT; 05-26-2006 at 07:35 AM..

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 05-27-2006, 04:53 AM   #13
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the name "madcow" and/or "JS" rows were so named because both Madcow and JS do rows the way Glenn Pendlay recommends doing them.

So referring to "JS Rows" is kinda like referring to the "Madcow 5x5".

and yes, that is my picture that I drew using my l33t mad MSPaint skilZ
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Old 06-07-2006, 07:13 AM   #14
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Default Dorian Rows Opinion

hello Gang,
I love bent rows but not like Dorian use to do them. I have noticed he has changed his grip style. I know some people like doing allot of their back movement with a curl grip. I am dead set against this. I am also against using a regular thumb over bar grip. I believe a trainees objective is to try to take as much bicep and forearm out of the movement as possible. I dont even like the close grip curl grip hammer strength lat pulldown. Look what happen to Dorian's bicep. I have personaly had bicep tendon problems also. I think it is crazy to try to row with a curl grip, you put a massive amount of stress on that small tendon area. I know you can pull your elbows in tighter and higher and in theory it looks great but after a few years I dont think your lower bicep tendon is going to be too happy.
Later
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Old 06-07-2006, 07:25 AM   #15
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Default Bent Row Form

I read about how some folks bent row and it just read un-natural. I believe that a movement has to be somewhat natural for your body. Your body naturaly want to balance itself and find the smoothest most sufficent path as possible. It wasnt desgined to make paths in an unnatural path. What I means is;
I see where people like to row the bar to their upper abdomen. This technique is going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on your lower back and force you to tense your erector spinae so hard just to keep from falling foward. I dont care how honest your intentions are your body is going to have to do something to keeo itself from falling face first on the floor.
I recommend about a position just a little above parralel and pull to your weight belt. Feel the bar knock against your weight belt.
I also recommend you not row while looking at a mirror. You are going to be looking at where the bar is hitting. This will make you bob up and down, which is not your objective. You need to look slightly up and foward. Never look down or you will look like your humping theneighbors dog.
If you notice you are bobing up and down like your bobbing for apples, you are, so you need to lower the weight so you stay fairly steady.
I saw a video of Ronnie Coleman doing rows and he was bobbing up and down and looked like he was also humping the pooch. No offense to Big Ron, who has the biggest and baddest back in the buisness, but #1 he has outragoeus genetics and would grow from scratching his ass and #2 we all know some of the crap he takes to get that way.
So, Play it safe and train in the safe zone while rowing.
Later
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Old 06-07-2006, 08:40 AM   #16
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Without getting into the arguments about what kind of grip to take I'd like to address this idea of "taking the biceps out of rowing and pulldown movements". I've heard people say that before. Part of row is elbow flexion is it not? Other than relying purely on momentum (which seems to me a better way to get injured) I would like someone to tell me how they think they can bend their elbow but take their biceps and forearms out of it? All using that philosophy does is make your biceps more of a limiting factor in terms of weight. The bottom line is I can pull more weight with an undernand or "curl" grip. More weight on the biceps portion of the movement means more weight to work your back.

This is not to get into the different biomechanical factors between different grips or which will cause injury. I am simply speaking to the fallacy that you can "take your biceps out of it". You can't.
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:11 AM   #17
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Default Curl Grip Rows

Hey Eric,
Good Point. What I am driving at is this. Try a heavy set of rows with a thumbs over the bar - curl grip for a few sets. Then a few days later feel how sore your biceps and forearms feel. Now a week later do the same row workout with a thumbless and palms to the rear grip for a few sets. Theb a few days later feel the soreness in your biceps and forearms. I would say thier is a darn good chance the curls grip row workout will result in a much higher amount of soreness in the bicep and forearm than the other workout. That is what I am driving at. Yes, their is NO way of not working your biceps and forearms during a back workout. It just inst possible. What I mean is lesseing the involevment of muscle fatigue in this area. Look at what happened to Dorian Yates and his bicep mishap.
Later
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Old 06-07-2006, 10:36 AM   #18
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I do both quite often and to tell you the truth I don't get very sore from any of it. But I don't do "volume" very much and I would never wait and entire week before hitting my back again! My biceps don't have much trouble recovering from whatever I throw at them even when I throw in more isolations than usual.


There may be something to what you're saying but I could apply an alternate argument. If you worry about soreness and the fatigue and so you use a grip that keeps your biceps away form a position of full contraction then you're not conditioning your biceps fully and so guaranteeing more fatique. But we could go around and around.


As for Dorian and his injury, as I said I'm not arguing that. I've never had a bicep tear and I don't claim to know what sort of grip may lead to injury. I use a pronated grip during rows becasue it has been suggested to me by people I trust that this is the way to go. But I would have done it anyway because it works better for me. I think my central point is that using a certain grip is not going to give you a better or worse workout. Injury potential is a whole nother ballpark. For me, the heavier I go the better I grow. I try to balance this with what I've heard about certain practices but I'm not going to kid myself and say "if i use a pronated grip that'll take the biceps out in some sense or other and It'll work better.


Whatever movemen't you do theres going to be a limiting factor. The weakest point in the chain. You can't make that disappear. To me, that link being as strong as possible makes sense. I guess we find the limits of those links in our chains when certain things, although, allowing us to lift heavier, results in injury. But to be truthful the ONLY argument I have ever heard in terms of suppination on rows causing injury is that Dorian hurt himself. That is unless I've forgotten other things.


If anybody has any actual reason why this may be the case other than "Dorian Yates tore his bicep" I'd love to hear it. Just for curiosity if nothing else. I've done rows both ways in the past and had no problems with my elbows nor felt like I was going to injure myself. But that doens't mean anything. Other people have had different experiences.

Last edited by EricT; 06-07-2006 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 06-07-2006, 11:58 PM   #19
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Soreness is not an indication (or lack thereof) of a good workout. Changing an angle at which you lift or changing the lift totally can lead to soreness, but it doesn't mean you had a better workout.

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Old 06-08-2006, 07:43 AM   #20
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Brad, who are you talking to? Did I say soreness indicated a good workout?

NM, I take it you're referring to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper
Try a heavy set of rows with a thumbs over the bar - curl grip for a few sets. Then a few days later feel how sore your biceps and forearms feel. Now a week later do the same row workout with a thumbless and palms to the rear grip for a few sets. Theb a few days later feel the soreness in your biceps and forearms.

Last edited by EricT; 06-08-2006 at 09:00 AM..
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