|
Dorian Rows
I am thinking about incorporating some Dorian rows into my routine instead of regular barbell rows. I was wondering if anyone here has done them and whether they are worth switching to.
In case you don't know what I am talking about here is a description of the exercise from Dorian Yates himself: Quote:
|
I don't like them because they limit the amount I can put on the bar. Plus, I feel it work my biceps and lower back way more than upper (which is where I want to focus on). I use JS Rows, which allows you to stay perfectly parallel to the floor for each rep, thus elliminating the use of my lower back. When I tried these "Yates" rows, but having my back 70 degrees makes it more of a spinal erector workout. I've had way too much success with JS Rows to ever consider anything else.
Have you ever tried JS? Quote:
|
Also keep in mind that you'll also hear quotes from 'Dorian Yates' himself saying to always lift at your maximum, ect....Unfortunately, he took his own advice about both failure training and lifting as close to your max per rep range as possible and that was why he was also the most injured bodybuilder.
IMO your back deserves the most heaviest possible movements to grow. (at least mine definately does.) That's why deadlifts and weighted pullups (overhand grip) prove to be the best for growth->They're also the heaviest. I'd also like to see a EMG study done on these rows compared to reg. rows. The only EMG studies I saw show that the lats are hit the best with JS Rows. |
Never tried JS rows, just been doing regular so I thought it was time to try something new. I guess I can try them both out and see which I prefer.
Do you know where I can find a good description of how to perform JS rows? I've been looking but can't seem to find a layout for them anywhere. |
Here is the JS ROWS description that 0311 originally posted:
This was a repost by Fortified Iron originally from Madcow1 that talks about getting the most from barbell rows. I think after trying a few different ways that this is the best IMO. Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows. This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak. The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself (Madcow) have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way. I did rows with Coleman once, actually, and I was far stronger than he was. He could not do more than 350lbs strictly although he could do over 500lbs by standing almost all the way up at the completion of each rep. Ed Coan is probably the strongest person on these, although one power-lifter I trained did manage 525 for a double done strictly. |
Thanks.
|
Sleazy,
(and everyone else...) Here is a link to a thread I started about JS Rows. It's got some pics on how to do them. I found it really helpful. You need to join the site and it may take a couple hours for your account to activate. So just sign up and come back in a few hours or the next day and you'll get it. Let me know if you have any questions. http://www.bodybuilding.net/training...s-row-950.html |
LOL I feel like an ass with you guys posting links to my own board.
Someone should just reply with "It's called the search tool you stupid newb" |
Nah, man, you work hard around here.
|
Quote:
hey, you asked for it;) |
I like to think that I've mastered both of these (As much as a dope like me can master anything...I'm still trying to master working this here belt buckle..)
when I get back to the states and get myself unbroke, I'll post a video of me doing both of these the right way. A few points about both of the rows Yates rows 1) - do 'em overhand or use a cambered curl bar to use an angled undergrip. I do them overhand. No loss 2) Pause the weight at your gut 3) Don't do these AFTER you deadlift. You'll die. 4) Force yourself to contract your lats as you bring the bar up. It requires immense concentration to make it work, but if you contract (and arch) your lats, the lat gets worked DAMN hard. It's quite obvious, having done these properly, why the hell Dorian's back looked like it did 5) This exercise WILL expose weaknesses. Traps weak? You'll know. Rear delts weak? You'll know. Spinal erectors weak? You'll know. Unless you have a very good base of strength, these will NOT work JS (Pendlay) Rows 1) Do these. Do these as described. Deweight between reps. Keep body parallel to the ground. Explode weight upward. Just do these damn things and no whining. 2) Do these. They are phenominal. They don't work for you? Then you're doing them wrong. Practice untl you get them right, or suffer with your crappy back development 3) Did I mention that you should do these? |
Quote:
Quote:
Kethanaab you don't have to post a pic: http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g1...y20rows7E1.jpg Isn't that you? |
the name "madcow" and/or "JS" rows were so named because both Madcow and JS do rows the way Glenn Pendlay recommends doing them.
So referring to "JS Rows" is kinda like referring to the "Madcow 5x5". and yes, that is my picture that I drew using my l33t mad MSPaint skilZ |
Dorian Rows Opinion
hello Gang,
I love bent rows but not like Dorian use to do them. I have noticed he has changed his grip style. I know some people like doing allot of their back movement with a curl grip. I am dead set against this. I am also against using a regular thumb over bar grip. I believe a trainees objective is to try to take as much bicep and forearm out of the movement as possible. I dont even like the close grip curl grip hammer strength lat pulldown. Look what happen to Dorian's bicep. I have personaly had bicep tendon problems also. I think it is crazy to try to row with a curl grip, you put a massive amount of stress on that small tendon area. I know you can pull your elbows in tighter and higher and in theory it looks great but after a few years I dont think your lower bicep tendon is going to be too happy. Later Sleeper:weights: |
Bent Row Form
I read about how some folks bent row and it just read un-natural. I believe that a movement has to be somewhat natural for your body. Your body naturaly want to balance itself and find the smoothest most sufficent path as possible. It wasnt desgined to make paths in an unnatural path. What I means is;
I see where people like to row the bar to their upper abdomen. This technique is going to put a tremendous amount of pressure on your lower back and force you to tense your erector spinae so hard just to keep from falling foward. I dont care how honest your intentions are your body is going to have to do something to keeo itself from falling face first on the floor. I recommend about a position just a little above parralel and pull to your weight belt. Feel the bar knock against your weight belt. I also recommend you not row while looking at a mirror. You are going to be looking at where the bar is hitting. This will make you bob up and down, which is not your objective. You need to look slightly up and foward. Never look down or you will look like your humping theneighbors dog. If you notice you are bobing up and down like your bobbing for apples, you are, so you need to lower the weight so you stay fairly steady. I saw a video of Ronnie Coleman doing rows and he was bobbing up and down and looked like he was also humping the pooch. No offense to Big Ron, who has the biggest and baddest back in the buisness, but #1 he has outragoeus genetics and would grow from scratching his ass and #2 we all know some of the crap he takes to get that way. So, Play it safe and train in the safe zone while rowing. Later Sleeper |
Without getting into the arguments about what kind of grip to take I'd like to address this idea of "taking the biceps out of rowing and pulldown movements". I've heard people say that before. Part of row is elbow flexion is it not? Other than relying purely on momentum (which seems to me a better way to get injured) I would like someone to tell me how they think they can bend their elbow but take their biceps and forearms out of it? All using that philosophy does is make your biceps more of a limiting factor in terms of weight. The bottom line is I can pull more weight with an undernand or "curl" grip. More weight on the biceps portion of the movement means more weight to work your back.
This is not to get into the different biomechanical factors between different grips or which will cause injury. I am simply speaking to the fallacy that you can "take your biceps out of it". You can't. |
Curl Grip Rows
Hey Eric,
Good Point. What I am driving at is this. Try a heavy set of rows with a thumbs over the bar - curl grip for a few sets. Then a few days later feel how sore your biceps and forearms feel. Now a week later do the same row workout with a thumbless and palms to the rear grip for a few sets. Theb a few days later feel the soreness in your biceps and forearms. I would say thier is a darn good chance the curls grip row workout will result in a much higher amount of soreness in the bicep and forearm than the other workout. That is what I am driving at. Yes, their is NO way of not working your biceps and forearms during a back workout. It just inst possible. What I mean is lesseing the involevment of muscle fatigue in this area. Look at what happened to Dorian Yates and his bicep mishap. Later Sleeper |
I do both quite often and to tell you the truth I don't get very sore from any of it. But I don't do "volume" very much and I would never wait and entire week before hitting my back again! My biceps don't have much trouble recovering from whatever I throw at them even when I throw in more isolations than usual.
There may be something to what you're saying but I could apply an alternate argument. If you worry about soreness and the fatigue and so you use a grip that keeps your biceps away form a position of full contraction then you're not conditioning your biceps fully and so guaranteeing more fatique. But we could go around and around. As for Dorian and his injury, as I said I'm not arguing that. I've never had a bicep tear and I don't claim to know what sort of grip may lead to injury. I use a pronated grip during rows becasue it has been suggested to me by people I trust that this is the way to go. But I would have done it anyway because it works better for me. I think my central point is that using a certain grip is not going to give you a better or worse workout. Injury potential is a whole nother ballpark. For me, the heavier I go the better I grow. I try to balance this with what I've heard about certain practices but I'm not going to kid myself and say "if i use a pronated grip that'll take the biceps out in some sense or other and It'll work better. Whatever movemen't you do theres going to be a limiting factor. The weakest point in the chain. You can't make that disappear. To me, that link being as strong as possible makes sense. I guess we find the limits of those links in our chains when certain things, although, allowing us to lift heavier, results in injury. But to be truthful the ONLY argument I have ever heard in terms of suppination on rows causing injury is that Dorian hurt himself. That is unless I've forgotten other things. If anybody has any actual reason why this may be the case other than "Dorian Yates tore his bicep" I'd love to hear it. Just for curiosity if nothing else. I've done rows both ways in the past and had no problems with my elbows nor felt like I was going to injure myself. But that doens't mean anything. Other people have had different experiences. |
Soreness is not an indication (or lack thereof) of a good workout. Changing an angle at which you lift or changing the lift totally can lead to soreness, but it doesn't mean you had a better workout.
|
Brad, who are you talking to? Did I say soreness indicated a good workout?
NM, I take it you're referring to this: Quote:
|
How Heavy?
Eric,
I am curious just how heavy are you training? I am or will hit a row with uo to 365 for 5 reps. I never go over 3 sets of any exercise. Usually in the 2nd day after a back workout my lats are failry sore. I have a feeling either you are now pushing it to failure for all three sets or your deploying that pyramid nonscense. Where by the time you hit your heaviest set you are too wasted to get any quality reps. I do a reverse pyramid much like 0311 takls about. Remember your always strongest at the beginning of an exercise. I have a gut feeling your are not doing as low of sets as I am. Also if you are doing body parts over once a week and going to failure with massive weights you would be a physical wreak after a fe months of this. I have personaly never seen a person that goes all out with the same muscle twice a week go that heavy unles he is a roided up Coleman trainer. I am curious how you are doing this. If so, you have the most amazing recovery system on a natural guy. If you are not up to super heavy weights and all out failure I can see how one can train constantly but once you are hitting above 85% max with sets in the 5 to 6 reps I think not, No offense. |
I am not the only one doing this. Sounds like your describing a sort of HIT thing.
My bread and butter is full-body workouts or at most upper/lower splits in the 3 to 6 rep range. I don't often pyramid unless for a specific reason. And no, I am not alway stronger at the beginning. Matter of fact when I do 5x5 same weight and working with 85% intensity or better I find myself wondering if I can get throught the second set and then breezing through the last. I don't go to all out failure. I go to near failure but always leave one in the tank. I will go to failure sometimes and on certain bodyparts most of the time. As to recovery my recovery ability has been maximized from hitting my muscles more frequently over time and avoiding CNS overtraining and metabolic fatique when possible which is really the problem you are talking about. But I have a feeling that your next post will be something about how the longer and harder you train the less often you can train, right? |
Quote:
Working your muscles once per week is one of the worst ways to train. Think about it.. If protein synthesis is only elevated for 3 days within the muscle, why in the world would you want to grow for 3 days, then struggle to maintain your growth for the other 4?? Soreness is not an indicator for growth, and you can certainly train while sore. |
Quote:
|
Veterans Thinking NOT
0311,
whew for guys who write allot and paste and cut. You talk sideways. Here is my routine. And yes I do train more than once a week... just a diffrent muscle grouping and in a logical method,.. Day One Incline press 3 sets Flat Press 3 sets Day Two Squat 2 -3 sets Leg Press 2 sets Lying Leg Curl 3 sets Day Four Off Day Five Off Day Six Bent Rows 3 sets Front lat pulldowns 3 sets Rope Row 2 sets Day Seven Military Press 3 sets Shrugs 3 sets Rear laterals 2 sets Side laterals 2 sets Standing Calves 3 sets Seated Calves 2 sets Day Eight Off Day Nine Overhead Tricep Ext 3 sets Lying Tri ext 2 sets Alt Dumbell Curl 2 sets EZ bar curl 2 sets Wrist curls 3 sets Day ten and eleven off Day twelve start the cycle over Notice I dont religiously go be some archaic weekly structure. Your body doesnt give two figs about what day of the week it is. As long as your blasting and fully recovering that is the key. Just make sure to eat train and rest If you train two days in a row then rest two days in a row. That is my two cents worth. Good Luck Sleeper |
No one is talking sideways. You just don't understand what we are saying.
|
Fascinating routine though. I've been researching. I think it's called a split. Must be some new thing.
|
Good job, btw, of avoiding hardly any type of overlap between muscles worked.
|
Sleeper, that workout sucks for anyone NATURAL. What's so hard about this?
Go back to bodybuilding.com or whatever HIT site you're from because you cannot simply prove ANY OF YOUR ARGUEMENTS...Nothing beyond "Wow, you cut and paste alot." How old are you again?? All I ask is any proof aside from either heresay or I heard from my mother's sister's boyfriend's uncle.. Or my new favorite, "You cut and paste alot so that means I'm right" :D |
Quote:
Go push the search button and find "The Death of Modern Bodybuilding" You're killing the forum |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:34 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.