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Supplements discussion on 17 year old trying to gain weight..NO2?, within the Bodybuilding Forum; I've heard that if you drink 20oz of milk after a workout that has the same effects of creatine without ...


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Old 06-09-2006, 05:54 AM   #11
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I've heard that if you drink 20oz of milk after a workout that has the same effects of creatine without the negative side effects
If you drink 20oz of milk post workout, you will have an insulin spike due to lactose, which may cause all that sugar in the milk to be stored instead of used to heal your muscles ... very bad idea.

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Old 06-09-2006, 09:03 AM   #12
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An insulin spike is the very reason many people choose high GI carbs (like Waxy Maize) post workout...taking advantage of the post workout window where your muscles are primed to take on nutrients. However, milk is NOT a high GI beverage although I know many people cling to it as their post workout drink of choice. It stays in the stomach a long time and absorbs relatively slowly....will blood gucose levels rise? Probably. Will they rise fast enough and high enough to induce an insulin spike? Probably not.

Besides the gycemic index of milk being low, if you consider the gycemic load which is much more indicative of how fast a given portion will raise blood sugar levels you'll see what I mean.

My calculatins could be off but I'm getting a test portion of somewhere around 35 ounces or around 4 cups of skimmed milk in order to arrive at the GI below.

Food: Milk (whole/full-fat)
Food Serving Size: 8 fl oz (250ml)
Glycemic Load per Food Serving: 3


Food: Milk (whole/full-fat)
Glycemic Index: 27
Glycemic Index Rating: Low


Food: Milk (skimmed)
Food Serving Size: 8 fl oz (250ml)
Glycemic Load per Food Serving: 4


Food: Milk (skimmed)
Glycemic Index: 32
Glycemic Index Rating: Low

Source

What is Glycemic Load?


Last edited by EricT; 06-09-2006 at 02:16 PM..

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 06-09-2006, 07:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by hrdgain81
If you drink 20oz of milk post workout, you will have an insulin spike due to lactose, which may cause all that sugar in the milk to be stored instead of used to heal your muscles ... very bad idea.
So I shouldn't take my whey with milk for my p/wo shake? I usually have one scoop of ON w/ 16 oz of 2% milk...

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Old 06-09-2006, 08:04 PM   #14
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If you want a slow absorbing carb for your pwo drink then you might as well drink milk.

If you wan't a fast absorbing carb for you pwo shake then don't drink milk. Use dex, malto, waxy maize starch or maybe some kind of designer glucose mixed in WATER.

If you don't want a big insulin spike then you may as well drink milk or use some other low GI carb source. As I have demontrated above, milk is low GI and VERY low glycemic load.

If you want an insulin spike because you want insulin to shuttle the glucose into your hungry and waiting muscles then milk would be a pretty poor choice. In this case dex, malto, waxy maize starch should be chosen.
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Old 06-10-2006, 12:47 PM   #15
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Well looky looky, I'm an idiot. For a while Hardgain has been saying that milk will cause an insulin spike and I've been saying no way, it's low GI and that is a reliable predictor of insulin response. But Hardgain kept saying it so after this last post I got to thinking there must be a reason...

What confused me was the assertion that lactose would cause a spike. The type of carb or the amount of carbohydrates in a food are NOT what you look at...you look at the GI of the food as a whole as a predicter...MOST of the time. Milk has a low GI and very low GL and that was good enough for me.

But now I know where this has been coming from:

Inconsistency between glycemic and insulinemic responses to regular and fermented milk products1,2,3
Elin M Östman1, Helena GM Liljeberg Elmståhl1 and Inger ME Björck1
1 From the Department of Applied Nutrition and Food Chemistry, Center for Chemistry and Chemical Engineering, Lund University, Sweden.

Background: Foods with a low glycemic index are increasingly being acknowledged as beneficial in relation to the insulin resistance syndrome. Certain organic acids can lower the glycemic index of bread products. However, the possible effect of acids in fermented milk products on the glycemic index and on insulinemic characteristics has not been addressed. The metabolic effects of fermented milk or pickled products used as additives to mixed meals have also not been addressed.

Objectives: One objective was to characterize the glycemic and insulinemic responses after intake of regular or fermented milk products (study 1). In addition, the acute metabolic effect of fermented milk (yogurt) and pickled cucumber as supplements to a traditional breakfast based on a high–glycemic index bread was evaluated (study 2).
Design: Ten healthy volunteers were served different breakfast meals after an overnight fast. Capillary blood samples were collected before and during 2 (study 1) or 3 (study 2) h after the meal. White-wheat bread was used as a reference meal in both studies.

Results: The lactic acid in the fermented milk products did not lower the glycemic and insulinemic indexes. Despite low glycemic indexes of 15–30, all of the milk products produced high insulinemic indexes of 90–98, which were not significantly different from the insulinemic index of the reference bread. Addition of fermented milk (yogurt) and pickled cucumber to a breakfast with a high–glycemic index bread significantly lowered postprandial glycemia and insulinemia compared with the reference meal. In contrast, addition of regular milk and fresh cucumber had no favorable effect on the metabolic responses.

Conclusions: Milk products appear insulinotropic as judged from 3-fold to 6-fold higher insulinemic indexes than expected from the corresponding glycemic indexes. The presence of organic acids may counteract the insulinotropic effect of milk in mixed meals.

It is believed it could be because of the PROTEINS:

Studies on starchy foods commonly show a positive correlation between glycaemic index (GI) and insulinemic index (II), i.e. low-GI foods cause lower postprandial insulin responses compared with high-GI food. Some food products, e.g. milk, exhibit higher levels of circulating insulin than predicted from lactose, implying that other components in milk may have impact on the insulin release. This insulinotrophic effect is most likely related to the protein fraction. It is known that certain amino acids have the ability to stimulate insulin release, however if the insulinotrophic effects of milk is due to the amino acid pattern remains to be evaluated. High levels of circulating insulin, hyperinsulinemia, is discussed as a risk factor for development of diseases related to the metabolic syndrome, e.g. type II diabetes.

The purpose of this project is to study glucose and insulin response to milk and other food proteins, study the mechanism for insulinotrophic effect and evaluate metabolic consequences. Metabolic effects are evaluated in acute meal studies in healthy and diabetic subjects as well as in rat models.

It doesn’t appear to be the FAT:

Hoyt G, Hickey MS, Cordain L. Dissociation of the glycaemic and insulinaemic responses to whole and skimmed milk. Br J Nutr 2005;93:175-177.

ABSTRACT

In most carbohydrate-containing foods, the blood insulin response is predictable and is closely linked to the food’s glycemic index (GI). A single study, examining whole milk and fermented milk products made from whole milk, recently reported a large dissociation between the GI and insulinemic index (II) in healthy normals. Because the fat component of a food may influence the GI and II, it is unclear if a similar dissociation may exist for skim milk in normals. We determined the GI and II of both skim and whole milk in nine healthy, male (n=6) and female (n=3) subjects (23.6 ± 1.4 years). No significant (p>0.05) differences existed between GI and II for skim and whole milks. Significant (p<0.05) differences were observed between the actual and predicted areas under the insulin curves for both skim milk (predicted 1405 ± 289 pmol-min/L; actual 6152 ± 1177 pmol-min/L) and whole milk (predicted 1564 ± 339 pmol-min/L; actual 5939 ± 1095 pmol-min/L). Consequently, a large and similar dissociation of the GI and II existed for both whole milk (42 ± 5 and 148 ± 14) and skim milk (37 ± 9 and 140 ± 13). It is concluded that the dissociation of the GI and II in milk is not related to its fat content.

Further from the original study:

Forty-five minutes postprandially, the regular milk and filmjölk elicited lower insulin responses than did the WWB (Figure 2); 30 and 45 min after the meal, insulin responses were significantly lower with the lactose solution than with the WWB (white wheat bread). Insulin concentrations after ropy milk were not significantly different from concentrations after the WWB meal at all time points, except for 95 min postprandially, when insulin responses were significantly lower after the WWB meal. The insulinemic index for the milk products did not differ significantly from those for the WWB but were significantly higher than those for the lactose solution (Table 3). No differences in insulinemic indexes were found between the milk products.


All of the milk products included in study 1 induced postprandial hypoglycemia after <50 min postprandially, which may be explained by the high insulin concentrations.


Notice that the milk illicited a higher insinemic index then PURE LACTOSE.


The study also said:

In the mid-1980s, Gannon et al (22) found milk to be a potent insulin secretagogue in type 2 diabetic patients. Some years later, Schrezenmeir et al (23) reported that the postprandial glucose and insulin responses to a milk-containing breakfast did not correlate in healthy individuals. A possible explanation for an insulinotropic effect of milk involves amino acids and lipids, because it is known that these components can increase the insulin secretion or the insulin demand of a meal (2426).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now this is all very complicated and I'm not sure I understand it but what I'm getting is that milk causes an insulin response that is unassociated with its GI. It's still a crappy way to get glucose into you system when you need it. Plus you get an insulin response. Is this a delayed insulin response? Like 45 minutes later. I think that's what all this mean. Even worse. So I still say MILK SUCKS FOR POST WORKOUT and Hardgain was right that it causes an insulin response but it's not because of lactose.

Personally I want carbs after a workout. Now I go with high GI carbs and an insulin spike immediately post workout. I know it's highly debated whether it is necessary but I'm going with info from highly respected individuals and what seems to be working for me.

What I said before is still true. Milk is a pretty slow way to deliver glucose to the muscles. If you want fast glucose and a corresponding spike in insulin to deliver said glucose and maybe creatine to muscles then go with dex, malto, or better yet, I presume, WMS.

One more thing before I shut up about this since I don't want anyone to think that the glycymic index and glycemic load is unreliable: it is.

Today, there is an international consensus regarding the nutritional relevance of the glycemic index concept. In dietary recommendations from the Food and Agriculture Organization and the World Health Organization (8), an increased consumption of low–glycemic index foods is strongly advocated.





Last edited by EricT; 06-10-2006 at 01:59 PM..
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