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final stage cutting supps

Supplements discussion on final stage cutting supps, within the Bodybuilding Forum; I cam across this in the avant section on AM.com http://anabolicminds.com/forum/avant...t-support.html Very interesting thread and if you dont feel like ...


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Old 05-19-2006, 06:32 AM   #1
hrdgain81
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Default final stage cutting supps

I cam across this in the avant section on AM.com

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/avant...t-support.html

Very interesting thread and if you dont feel like reading all 20 pages of it here is the gist.

-For spot reduction in localized areas, using liproderm ultra and capaicin .1% cream has great feedback for releasing fat stores.

-This combo (mostly the cap) however can cause skin irratation, and painful burning sensations where applied.

-Cap cream can be bought otc at any drug store.

-one bottle of each should last 2-3 weeks.

*This isnt for everyone, but many people have reported some amazing things on this stack. I will most likely give it a try once I'm down around 200lbs. My love handles and lower abs are always problem areas, and this may help solve that.

I would not reccomend this for those who are just starting to cut, this is a finishing stack IMO.

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Old 05-19-2006, 08:43 AM   #2
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I take it cap=capsaicin=cayenne/chili peppers. Iíd say that burns. But with repeated applications it is a great pain reliever (desensitizes nerve ending to P-mediated pain transmissions or something like that). Basically the more you use it the more desensitized you become to it similar to actually eating peppers. You eat enough of them they donít bother you anymore.

It is actually great for sore muscles and joints, arthritis, etc. All sorts of other stuff externally and internally. Supposedly has thermogenic effects because of stimulating norepinephrine realease hence finding it in many OTC fat loss aids.

Here is a discussion:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Par Deus
Lipoderm-Ultra and Lipoderm-ODB have finally been made available for public consumption. Feedback is starting to mount and both products seem to be a significant improvement over the original version. Truly, Par Deus deserves a hardy pat on the back as he did a marvelous job; these are two killer products in their own right. However, I would like to take some time in this issue of Mind and Muscle to discuss how we can improve these products even further.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Par Deus

Why It Works...

There is one very intriguing way in which we can enhance Lipoderm's efficacy. Namely, I want to talk about reducing adipose tissue insulin sensitivity. I would like to make real Lyle McDonald's ultimate dream of insulin resistant fat tissue that does not negatively affect muscle tissue.

Theoretically, this should be possible via Lipoderm's localized delivery vehicle. Often in bodybuilding literature we discuss things that improve one's insulin sensitivity.

However, it is pretty rare that we converse on how we might induce insulin insensitivity. The problem is even more complicated if we want to keep the effect as localized as is physically possible. What I would like to present to you is a theory on how we might accomplish this task. I believe I have an excellent solution, however to my knowledge I am currently the only one who has tested my theory. Because of this, my results may not be typical nor what is normal.

So, take the following information with a grain of salt. Though, I suggest you try my approach, as my results may very well be what are typical. Those of you who do try my concoction, please take the time to post your results-good or bad-on the Avant Labs forum so that everyone can benefit from your experience. So, without further adieu let's get to the meat of this discussion...

The Discussion...

There is indeed a way to induce localized insulin resistance. The key compound involved is Calcitonin Gene Related Peptide or CGRP for short. CGRP is an interesting little molecule that is released from the sympathetic nervous system. It tends to cause calcium depletion from cells. Interestingly, one of CGRP's side effects when released in large amounts happens to be insulin resistance. In fact, it has been proposed that CGRP is one of the prime factors responsible for inducing the small amounts of insulin resistance seen in smokers.

People who have smoked for several years generally exhibit a very mild insulin insensitivity that resembles a pre-diabetic state, though it seldom develops into real diabetes unless one is genetically prone. This mild insulin resistance generally disappears if the subject quits smoking. It just so happens that nicotine causes a large release of CGRP through interaction with the nerves that compose the sympathetic nervous system. So, nicotine is one way of eliciting localized insulin resistance. I will talk more about that later. Instead I would like to move on to the compound that I think holds more promise: namely, Capsaicin.

Capsaicin is the stuff in peppers that gives them their hot taste. Of interest here is that, when nerves are exposed to capsaicin, they release a very large amount of CGRP. Of course, too much CGRP and you can actually damage the nerve permanently. Curiously, by permanently damaging capsaicin-sensitive nerves, rats and mice actually get leaner. For example, in one study researchers took mice and desensitized them to capsaicin by giving them a very large dose of the compound at the age of 1.5 months. They then compared those mice with matched controls at one year of age.

What they found was that that the desensitized mice had 9% less epididymal and 30 % less retroperitoneal fat than the controls. This was due to a reduction in the number of fat cells. The authors proposed that by desensitizing the capsaicin-sensitive neurons they attenuated the normal age-associated increase in CGRP activity and thus promoted whole body insulin insensitivity.

Now it's entirely questionable if humans would have a similar reaction, as rats and mice use their capsaicin-sensitive neurons to regulate thermogenesis in their brown fat tissue. So, we could be witnessing some kind of interaction with the brown fat thermogenesis system, which in turn causes this leanness. Now, much can be said about capsaicin as a fat loss aid at least in rats. But we are kind of getting off track.

What we really want to do for our purposes is provide a small dose of capsaicin to the nerve tissue that surrounds our subcutaneous adipose tissue. This way CGRP is released in this region resulting in localized insulin resistance, which should enhance fat loss from the targeted area. Furthermore CGRP is one of the most potent-if not the most potent-vasodilator naturally produced by the human body. So, it should substantially increase blood flow to the area, allowing for removal of the fatty acids that are released by Lipoderm's lipolytic ingredients.

Now back to nicotine. Not only does nicotine also cause the release of CGRP, it does so synergistically with capsaicin. In fact it seems that nicotine may sensitize the vanilloid receptors that capsaicin binds to (Yes that's vanilloid as in vanilla; capsaicin and vanilla are very close cousins at the molecular level). Nicotine is of course mildly lipolytic in its own right, which is an added benefit. In short I propose the addition of nicotine and capsaicin to the Lipoderm formula of your choice for enhanced fat reduction.

"If you are willing to put up with the pain you will be rewarded with accelerated fat loss."

You may be wondering why this was not included in the formula if it's so potent. Well there is one downside and let me tell you it's a big one: that downside is pain. I have tried this concoction and I will say it is not even remotely pleasant. It induces a severe burning sensation that subsides into a mild burning/numbness that can be felt fairly deeply in the tissue. However, if you are willing to put up with the pain you will be rewarded with accelerated fat loss.

Personally I tried this with the original Lipoderm formula and felt the results were at least an order of magnitude better than what I experienced with Lipoderm alone. That said, many people have complained about how Lipoderm-Y feels on their skin. If you were one of those individuals then you do not want to try this concoction. If however you are feeling brave, then I highly recommend you give it a shot. For me, the results were worth the pain. The addition of capsaicin and nicotine allowed me to burn some very stubborn fat right below my navel that I had never previously succeeded in dieting away.

I will leave it to the reader to figure out how to obtain nicotine or capsaicin. I will however mention that capsaicin is used in many over-the-counter arthritis creams. There is one arthritis medication in particular that is a liquid and not a cream that contains little more than alcohol, menthol, and capsaicin. This is a perfect choice as menthol is one of the penetration enhancers used in the original Lipoderm formula. Nicotine is available in patches or crushable lozenges these days so it should not be too hard to come up with a way to add that as well.

Well I hope the more adventurous of you out there give this a try. Should you do so, please do give your feedback in the Avant Labs forums, as I would really enjoy hearing about your successes or failures. Just remember to avoid applying this on any sensitive area during your first treatment. As always, I will be available in the Avant Labs forums to answer any questions you might have.
What is interesting to me is that the author mentions it being used topically for arthritis but he doesn't mention that pain RELIEF is one of its main uses period. He goes on and on about how much pain it causes. Well, with repeated application the pain goes away. That's one of the whole points of it. I find it dubious that the article doesn't mention this. Smacks of tunnel vision in the reasearch.

Anything that is causing pain on the skin - that pain should go away too. Although you better not use it on scratches, abrasions or cuts! I'm thinking you'd have to use it more than once a day for the pain to stop. But I don't really know.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 05-19-2006, 09:55 AM   #3
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I think it was said to use it twice a day in that thread.
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:13 AM   #4
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Then the burning should go away. Provided you use it in the same exact spots every time...
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:19 AM   #5
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well I wont even consider this till my bodyfat is low enough. Then I will just use it on those stubborn, wont go away, areas like love handles and lower abs. there is a possiblity i would use it on my chest too, pec fat just doesnt ever seem to budge.
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Old 05-19-2006, 10:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardgain
there is a possiblity i would use it on my chest too, pec fat just doesnt ever seem to budge.
Yeah. Just keep in mind....you do NOT want that stuff on your nipples!
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Old 05-19-2006, 12:47 PM   #7
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this is pretty interesting stuff, if you try this out hardgainer then i would definatly like to know your results. My only question is how would you measure out the right dosage for the capaicin cream?
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Old 05-20-2006, 04:21 PM   #8
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that isnt real clear, and i'd have to see how it spreads before i can answer that. Like I said I"m still a ways a way.
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