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im trying to gain some mass and am starting that 5x5 beginner program. my question is would i be better off with a weight gainer or protein drink for my pre and post workout. i think my nutrition is pretty good(im a chef at an italian restaurant. free food and lots of it) but i know those meals are really important.

A weight gainer would be fine for pre if you were to take it around 45 minutes to an hour before. For post it would be no good, imo. Protein by, itself, btw, is not optimal. You'll want some fast absorbing carbs in the post workout period also. Amino acids are only one part of the equation for muscle growth. All the PROTEIN, PROTEIN, PROTEIN, talk makes people forget that.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

....and most weight gainers are filled with crappy high GI carbs, lots of them....the supp companies didn't forget about carbs for gaining weight that's why "weight gainers" are filled with them.

In the morning or post w/o is the most ideal time for weight gainers if you're going to use them.

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According to what's in them, I'd say a weightgainer may or may not be good for post. I don't believe in classifying a carb as crappy but either as appropriate or inappropriate given the circumstances. Both immediately before and post are good places of those high GI carbs. The high GI carbs in most weight gainers are primarily malto dextrin. Maltodextrin can be good immediately pre and post. For preworkout coming 45 minutes to an hour before, imo, Low to Medium GI carbs are better than the malto and other carbs found in most weighgainers.

A lot of weightgainers also contain casein. Casein is not a good protein for post because it slows down absorption too much. It is certainly better than nothing post but not as good as a whey or fast absorbing source of aminos. Some weightgainers only contain whey and may be OK for post. Likewise for immediately pre since it's gonna be sitting in you stomach and robbing blood from your muscles as well as not being available for quite a while.

A lot of them also contain some kind of fat. Same problem as casein.

On the subject of weightgainers in general I wouldn't make a habit of them but it is important to keep in mind that the content of a meal as a whole has to be figured to arive at the GI rating and not just the GI of the carb source, although the different carbs in a meal have the most influence. It is possible for a weighgainer, while containing high GI carbs to actually come out as medium on the scale because of all the other stuff in it. They can be useful but most people can easily make a more healthful weightgainer of their own.

So, if your were to use a weightgainer around your workout, imo, 45 minutes to an hour prior would be the best place but not optimal in terms of carbs. For a pre workout meal in that time frame lower GI carbs would be more ideal. I don't think most weightgainers are a good choice for post at all since it is very easy to obtain the quick absorbing protein and carbs that are more optimal for this period.

However, while I do believe that certain preworkout practices may be worse than nothing at all (although good preworkout formula is VERY important) in terms of post workout something is always better than nothing. So a weighgainer for post would be an improvement for someone who usually did nothing.

A meal of ANY sort on ANY level is not ideal directly pre w/o.

I disagree with alot of the rest that you said also, but what's the point? We are all entitled to our own opinions.

If you disagree with something than why not say why? No offence bro, but what the point of posting just to say you disagree? Can you ideas not stand up to a little scrutiny? This is after all a discussion. My opinin is a fairly researched one so if you feel yours is why not give it a go?

I've done a lot of experimentation in this regard and changed things up to find what works best for me. In terms of preworkout I have used slower proteins and carbs about an hour before to some success. Now I use a little fast protein and carbs just prior in a shake (about 15 minutes) and that works better for me. What works for others is up to them to find out, but there are certain practices that I can recommend against pretty confidently as not being optimal. But I never advocate a one size fits all approach for anyone.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "meal" preworkout. LOT's of people use a "shake" directly preworkout with plenty of success.

BTW, I think you may have mistaken my saying "pre-workout meal" as always meaning whole foods. It doesn't. It's a catchall so I don't have to be wordy and constantly switch between pre-workout shake or pre-workout meal depending on the time frame. I assume that most people know better than to fill their stomachs with meat and potatoes just before a workout . Especially since this is all gone over in exhaustive and redundant detail in the sticky.

Personally if and when I have time I like to cook some lean hamburger and rice. I eat this about 1.5 hrs before my workout and it works great for me.
Right after I slam some whey with water, then about 30 mins to 1 hr I eat some more fast digesting protein (chicken ) with carbs

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You really should look into some fast carbs post if you don't already. It's the perfect time for it .

I agree. His setup looks as close to perfect as it gets with exception to the lack of carbs directly post.

whey + carbs + creatine + 5-10g leucine would be "the best".