Beginner Routines Discussion (From Cerebro's Am I on the Right Track Thread

[EricT]

Jeff, you say you are training people. I don't say that about myself. If you ARE charging people to train them then you CAN do all these things I talked about. People do take on clients over the internet and they basically give them detailed questionnaire, ask them for specific photos. Come back with more follow up questions, etc. and it may take a couple of weeks before a program is reached.

But I AM not a TRAINER. Because I don't feel, with all my knowledge and experience, that I am qualified to be a trainer. So please don't think I am on a high horse because my feet are planted firmly on mother earth. You used the word training, not me. I was only ever talking about posting. And I don't care how you post it is completely up to you. But I will give whatever advice I see fit regardless if I get slammed by SS devotees. Listen, I used to have the same opinions as you and I simply don't feel the same way anymore. It is like I am arguing with my past self .

If your are just talking about helping people on the internet, which is what I do, then that's all you have to say. But if you think all these other things aren't done by internet trainers who get paid, then you are wrong.

Let me make this clear. I do not claim to "train" people. I am not, and I have never, tried to pass myself off in any way as a trainer. I hold myself to a high standard with the help I give, but that is all it is...help.

If that is all you are talking about then fine. But don't tell me you're a trainer and then tell me you make assumptions. Trainers are not paid to make assumptions, Jeff. Sorry if this insults you but it you are not willing to back up the statements you make about 'training' people, then you are going to get insulted quite often. It is not my intention to offend. I am just keeping it real.

I have, simply speaking, moved on, from the "overreaction" to starting strength. All a beginner needs is some guidelines and principles. A signpost. I am not longer going to decide, for people I know nothing about, what is useful for them. I will simply give general advice about the direction they might go in...and when they need SPECIFIC help I will help if I can, because that is what I am good at. There are hundreds of programs and methods out there. It is a mistake to get caught up in the method, imo. If a method works, it is because it adheres to established principles. And that applie to many, many different ways of doing things.

So I'm sorry bro, if I offended you or came off as arrogant because I really didn't mean to. I was really only asking you to clarify this businees of "training" people versus helping people on the internet because they are just two very different things.

[_Wolf_]

Originally Posted by Jeffo

YOU and SENTINEL: "Always modify the program at the beginning to take care of a few things that tend to be a problem for some people."
ME: " Basically start it as written, with less aggressive loading, unless/until modifications are necessary."

no. when did i say "modify" the program? im insisting on not doing that exact program. period. we're dealing with concepts here. if you say that Rippetoe's SS is a "program", then any "modification" you make to it will make it something other than "Rippetoe's". so im not asking anyone to modify the program at all. i dont even know why this sudden hype for Rippetoe's Starting Strength. prior to this the bible for weightlifting used to be Arnie's Encyclopedia. then came a lot of other stuff like dinosaur training, etc etc...beyond brawn ofcourse. i can almost imagine that in the oh so very near future more russian manuals will be translated and people will then veer towards training "russian" style and rippetoe's program will rot in the dust...

my principles are pretty simple. infact, id rather call them guidelines because i dont want it to appear that i am stating these as the be all and end all of training. that would make me no different than rippetoe saying "the best way to progress is..."

1.) there is no just one best thing. there is not just ONE way to progress, there is no just ONE exercise. there are many many ways to reach rome and similarly there are PLENTY of ways to get big, strong and stay healthy. this reminds me: we are all discussing this progression and training, etc and we forget how important it is to stay healthy.

2.) if you're going to train a beginner, you dont NEED to stick to full body workouts or splits or upper-lowers. there have been a whole bunch of roundtable discussions at t-nation with tate, cressey, etc and more with waterbury, thibaudeau, etc each one of these has its merits. i for one dont like "splits" because it divides the body into muscle groups whereas i prefer splitting up the lifts. as in one day for bench and squats, one for the deadlift and overhead press, etc etc. full body programs are good but if you REALLY want to load aggressively then full body programs dont always work out. ive been training upper lower style for almost a year now and i love it.

3.) exercise variations. choose a few. you dont need to choose each and every exercise that exists, but a good handful. unilateral movements are awesome to choose here. just a few ofcouse.

4.) different set-rep combinations.

5.) the ability to be flexible. you should be able to use an exercise for a while and then dump it for something else but keep the overall program the same. for example, if you're doing full body training 3x a week, and on friday's you have bench press for 5x5, you can (after like 3-4 weeks) drop the bench 5x5 to 3x5 and do 2 sets of unilateral dumbbell bench presses for 2x10-12. its no big deal. then after 4-5 weeks you can drop the unilateral work and go back to bench press 5x5. who knows? there are so many many options.

in the end i think my only point is that i like the training to be flexible. even if it is for a beginner. beginner's are still human beings. they dont necessarily have to be a bunch of bumbling idiots who dont know what they're doing

Originally Posted by Jeffo

We don't need to add GHR's, shoulder pre-hab stuff, and something that works the bottom half of the bench press unless/until those things are needed. Certain situations require certain modifications, but we don't need to make those modifications unless one of those situations somehow applies.

so you want to wait till shit starts hitting the roof and THEN you want to try and work the problem out? this reminds me of that fable i used to read when i was a kid...about the grass hopper and the ant....

Jeffo, we dont differ just at the beginning. i think thats where we have nothing in common. we probably only agree about the part where you say "non-agressive loading".

also, i like what Eric said....its like he's talking to his older self. in a way i feel like im talking to me when i was a Rippetoe Nazi too. i mean, i used to call up the man and have conversations with him about training (when i was on the texas method). but ive learnt SO much since from personal experience and from reading other people's journals. its not about simple loading and only one way of doing things...see the way i see it is if beginners can do anything and grow, why not make them do unilateral work, etc because they're ability to become healthier and stronger will be so much more. so that way they'll probably have less problems in the future. thats how i see it and this applies to shoulder stability work, weak point training, etc.

[Jonson]

[EricT]

LOL, now THAT is a new one on me. Marking your place .

No one is going to know what the hell I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Sentinel

even if it is for a beginner. beginner's are still human beings.

I don't care who your are that right there just makes sense. Quote of the day. They are also not robots or stepford wives.

What's ironic is the Rip never said there was only one way. People are making a bigger deal about SS then he ever would.

Let's all click our heels together and repeat three times:

it's no big deal, it's no big deal, it's no big deal

[Jeffo]

Originally Posted by Eric

But if you think all these other things aren't done by internet trainers who get paid, then you are wrong.

There's another good example. I'd appreciate it if you stopped talking to me like I'm some idiot. Any time you're ready would be fine.

Originally Posted by Eric

So I'm sorry bro, if I offended you or came off as arrogant because I really didn't mean to. I was really only asking you to clarify this businees of "training" people versus helping people on the internet because they are just two very different things.

Alright, no worries bro. All you had to do was ask.

I've only ever trained people in person, where the only assumption I make is that the person is actually being honest with me. Other things I can see. On the internet, it's advice, which means there are more assumptions involved.

Cheers,
Jeff

[Jeffo]

Sent,

Those 5 things are fine. I subscribe to all of them. Unfortunately, I fail to see how any of those things 5 things make things any better for the novice just starting out. They may make things more interesting or fun for some, and if you define that as "better" then that's great. But I fail to see how any of them will make the novice any further ahead after the first 8-12 weeks. We're talking about the first few months of training here. It's called STARTING strength for a reason.

If you want to do things in your own way, that's great. But I really don't understand how doing 2x8 is any better than 3x5, or how switching exercises every week is better than sticking to a few basic ones, or how doing a squat/bench split is better than a full body, or how uni stuff is better than barbell work for a new guy in his first few months. If you want to do what stuff, great, but I don't see how it will make you stronger over the first few months.

Originally Posted by Sent

so you want to wait till shit starts hitting the roof and THEN you want to try and work the problem out?

- I think you and I have a different idea of what we're talking about. It's called STARTING strength, and I'm talking about the first few months of training here. Not eveyone is the same mate. I'm sorry, but not everyone needs to immediately start doing GHR's, shoulder pre-hab and working the bottom half of the bench press on their first day of training. GHR's are useful and can be included if they're needed, shoulder pre-hab can be useful if there is a history, otherwise they can come in later, and working the bottom half of the bench press doesn't need to be included unless/until the bottom half of the bench press becomes a problem. Lots of people have never had a problem with the bottom half of the bench press, but you want everyone to start training it seperately on day one?

And I don't know where you get off calling me a "Rippetoe Nazi." Speak for yourself mate.

Anyways, have a good weekend!
Jeff

[EricT]

Thread closed due to continuing drama.

[EricT]

I missed Kane's post so I'm reopening the thread. I'm not going to let all this stop me from responding to him.

Originally Posted by Kane

guess the long and short of it is, I would suggest GHR's if I knew the person was capable of safely executing the exercise (assisted or otherwise). The same can be said for almost all exercises. I'm also going to say that I agree with GHRs being an excellent exercise, somewhere along the lines they should definitely be introduced into the routine. The suggestion I've made to some people that I 'coach' (I use that term very very loosely) is to do some wide stance squatting when GHRs are not really much of an option (ie more assisstance than actual exercise), and have some pullthroughs mixed in as well. Just something to get the glutes and hams involved by something other than hamstring curls. I'm not 100% sure if I'm right in doing that but it seems to have worked for myself and a few others I've helped.

If you are talking about switching to wide stance squats while putting in pullthroughs then it makes sense. People overestimeate that differnce that wide stance makes to the hamstrings but it makes a big difference in adductors so that's a good combo with a more PC exercise.