Boxing/Mixed matial arts

[Andrew87]

Yeah so alot of my friends are into the 2 things i put in my topic. Anywyas they want me to train with them in those thigns because im a bigger guy for that kind of shit. Anyways im thinking about it espically boxing. So anyways i was thinking of doing a boxing cardio thing but i dont wanna burn my muscle mass away. You guys got any thoughts on boxing/bodybuilding as a mix?

[EricT]

Well forget the Rocky I thing running around the city think more the later Rockys where he's out on the beach doing windsprints or pulling a sled or something.

So anything that is relatively short bursts of high intensity activity like HIIT....basically the same kind of thing, imo, which is best to do if you want to preserve muscle mass anyway. This is the kind of thing that will translate best into boxing being that boxing is largely an anaerobic activity anyway. I'm not saying that some steady-state style "cardio" isn't in order, but certainly no the staple.

[Darkhorse]

In my opinion, for what you're after, I'd do one or the other. You can do both, but somthing's got to give. Weightlifting for maximum size will make you slow and lower your stamina for boxing...Boxing is a lot of cardio which will eventually burn your muscle/fat for fuel. My advice is to keep gym sessions under a half hour, and lift for maintaining/increasing strength..Essentially lifting FOR increasing your hitting power.

[EricT]

Originally Posted by 0311

Weightlifting for maximum size will make you slow and lower your stamina for boxing

This is a very good point. It's exactly the reason why you see guys have a really hard time when they try to move up to a higher weight class quickly through weight training. It's about funtional mass...or the kind that translates to a corresponing increase in strength and power instead of just creating a further oxygen debt.

For my own part I think that boxing is actually closer to weitght training then it is to any traditional cardio activity. It's short bursts of high intensity activity which is distinctly anaerobic. The cardiovascular endurance comes in during recovery.

[EricT]

Here is a good explanation of what wer'e talking about:

OPTIMUM, NOT MAXIMUM, HYPERTROPHY

In both Olympic lifting and powerlifting, optimal and not maximal
hypertrophy is a central feature of the game, unlike bodybuilding where it
does not matter whether one is relatively weak or strong with reference to
one's bodymass. All that matters is well-defined, symmetrical muscle bulk
in bodybuilding, but in the lifting sports, your size and impressiveness of
appearance earn you scant respect - all that counts is what you lift.

Optimal hypertrophy means continuing to develop building muscle only as
long as that extra bulk continues to provide you with significant increases
in strength and power. If you add 10kg to your bodymass and your total
increases by only 5kg in a higher bodymass division, then your relative
strength has decreased and that added hypertrophy is wasted on you.

This is a serious problem in contact sports such as football where the
common belief is that virtually any form of added mass is good for the game
(especially defensive players), whereas in reality it would be a lot better
if the added bulk was mainly solid, functional muscle which added strength,
power, speed and agility.

DIFFERENT TYPES OF HYPERTROPHY

Research from Russia even suggests that there are two different types of
muscle hypertrophy: sarcomere hypertrophy (of the actual contractile
components) and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (of non-contractile proteins and
semifluid plasma between the muscle fibres), with the latter type of
hypertrophy being more in evidence in bodybuilding (Siff & Verkhoshansky
"Supertraining" 1998 Ch 1.12).

MUSCLE GROWTH & PERFORMANCE

To provide some more relevant information on this important and
controversial topic, I have included this fairly lengthy extract from
"Supertraining" (pp 58-60) for those who may be interested:

Other research has found that hypertrophied muscle fibres need a
significantly larger tissue volume to perform a given amount of work. With
the development of non-functional muscle bulk (sarcoplasmic hypertrophy),
the increase in muscle mass outsrtips the development of the circulatory
system, resulting in decreased nutrition and oxygenation of the muscle,
slowing down the metabolic processes in the muscle and less efficient
disposal of metabolic waste products from the musculoskeletal system
(Zalessky & Burkhanov Legkaya Atletika 1981: 1-7).

Furthermore, adaptation occurs more slowly in connective tissue (such as
tendons and ligaments) than in muscle and any increased tension made
possible in the musculotendinous complexes by the increased muscle mass can
cause damage to these structures (Zalessky & Burkhanov, 1981). Thus,
excessive hypertrophy usually leads to slower muscle recovery after
exercise, deterioration in speed, speed-strength and speed, as well as an
increased incidence of injury.

THE ENERGY COSTS OF TOO MUCH HYPERTROPHY

This might suggest that all muscle fibre hypertrophy lowers work capacity.
Hypertrophy is an adaptive response to physical stress and does offer the
benefit of increased mitochondrial surface area, which provides for more
efficient energy processes than would an increased number of mitochondria.
With a rapid increase in loading, the size of the mitochondria continues to
increase markedly, but their number decreases and the concentration of ATP
drops, thereby diminishing the partial volume of the contractile myofibrils.

The resulting energy deficit soon inhibits the formation of new structures
and the decreased amount of ATP stimulates various destructive processes
associated with decrease in the number of myofibrils. This process is
referred to as irrational adaptation.

Growth of any living structure is related to the balance between its volume
and its surface area. When muscle hypertrophy occurs, the surface of the
fibres grows more slowly than their volume and, this imbalance causes the
fibres to disintegrate and restructure in a way which preserves their
original metabolic state (Nikituk & Samoilov, 1990).

It would appear that light and medium increases in loading require less
energy, facilitate cell repair, minimise the occurrence of destructive
processes and stimulate the synthesis of new, non-hypertrophied cellular
structures. Medium loads applied with a medium rate of increase in loading
produce intense muscular development, the process in this case being
referred to as rational adaptation..

The fact that conventional isometric training improves performance in
static, rather than dynamic, exercise may be due to the different
structural effects of isometric training on the muscle fibres, muscle
cells, connective tissues and blood capillaries.

MORE ON OPTIMAL HYPERTROPHY

This work seems to corroborate the hypothesis referred to earlier that
there may be an optimum size for muscle fibres undergoing hypertrophy
(MacDougall et al, 1982; Tesch & Larsson, 1982). The importance of
prescribing resistance training regimes which produce the optimal balance
between hypertrophy and specific strength then becomes obvious. Thus, it
is not only prolonged cardiovascular training which can be detrimental to
the acquisition of strength, but multiple fairly high repetition sets of
heavy bodybuilding or circuit training routines to the point of failure may
also inhibit the formation of contractile muscle fibres.

Therefore, it is vital to monitor regularly changes in muscular structure
and function alongside changes in size and mass. In most cases the taking
of biopsies is not possible or financially practical, so that indirect
assessment of the adaptive processes is necessary. Increase in hypertrophy
of a given muscle zone may be assessed from muscle girth and skinfold
thicknesses at that site, while factors such as relative strength, maximal
strength and the strength deficit (see Ch 1) serve as useful indicators of
functional efficiency.

INDISCRIMINATE WEIGHT TRAINING

Bosco (1982a) cautions against the indiscriminate use of resistance
training that typifies much of the 'cross training' prescribed with weights
and circuits by Western personal trainers and coaches. He emphasizes that,
although heavy resistance training serves as a powerful stimulus for the
development and hypertrophy of both ST and FT fibres, the invaluable role
played by FT development can be impaired by the accompanying growth of ST
fibres, because the latter appear to provoke a damping effect on FT
contraction during fast movement.

This is due to the fact that, during high speed shortening of muscle, the
sliding velocity of ST fibres can be too slow and therefore, may exert a
significant damping effect on the overall muscle contraction. He concludes
that the central role played by the storage and release of elastic energy
by the connective tissues of the muscle complex should never be ignored in
sport specific training programmes.

Dr. Mel Siff

For my own part I can't say I agree with everything here. Especially the you recover slower with excess hypertrophy (but I may misunderstand what he's getting at). However, in general, I think it is something to think about for anyone involved in sports where strength, agility, and explosive power is a must.

[Andrew87]

so hmmm. what do u mean 311 by lowing the time at the gym as in dont lift as much?

[Darkhorse]

Originally Posted by Andrew87

so hmmm. what do u mean 311 by lowing the time at the gym as in dont lift as much?

You'll most likely be slightly depleted from all the cardio/boxing. By depleted, I mean your muscles will be semi-deprived of glycogen, which comes from your liver (energy). So instead of doing an hour long marathon, I'm saying to do a hard 30 minute workout. Keep it heavy yes, do a ton of sets no. The longer you stay trying to lift [submaximal] weights, the more your body becomes catabolic..Essentially your body is looking for energy, and it sees your muscles and goes, "yum yum".

A sample day for chest/back might look like this:

Monday:

Decline Barbell Bench- 3 x 6-8
Pullups- 3 x failure
Incline DB Press- 2 x 8-10
Widegrip Cable Rows- 2 x 8-10

* All of this doesn't include warmups of course. If you're lifting heavy enough, it's an asskicker..Especially while depleted.

[Andrew87]

what kind of cardio would u suggest and should i do it before my work out?

[Kane]

I would do windsprints or wear a weight vest and run or pull something with weight on it...keeping it to 30 min or so....and I would do it on your off days, if you can, because energy and catabolism would be an issue if you were lifting heavy ass weights and running with heavy ass weights.

btw, are you gonna actually learn/train to box or just box as cardio?

[Andrew87]

This other gym near me has a brazilian jin jitsu class that i hear is damn good. One of these guys i went to school with just placed 1st in some tournament somewhere so im going to learn there. If i go that is which i think i will. Im not so much liking the golds gym here it seems to catered to the rich people. But anyways yeah im going to check it out