Lifting is not a Science its a Feel Experiance

[Sleeper]

I get a kick out of guys and gals that have to get all scietific about how they train. I'm not writing about looking at some good training journals for some good tweeks. I think that is fantastic. But I really feel the best trainer is your own gut instinct. Training is like a finger print everyone responds different to training stimuli. Some blast the weight up and some are slow and steady. Often I love to write my own opinions on training techniques and ideas. I think this makes the forumn spicy. Just dont take it too serious. The World is serious enough as it is. I see all kinds of scientific posts on this forumn and thats all great and dandy, more power to you! But,...You know in your heart if your gaining mass and strength or not. All the science in the Universe is not going to give you that gain unless you yourself do it, no on else well. Ide like to see more humor on this forum myself. Less diagrams and quotes, we can all go to Barnes and Noble, sit down and read plenty about how to do a curl or a squat. Ive collected Muscle and Fitness, FLex, and Muscle MAg for over 20 years and basically its the same ole blah blah curls bench squat, etc. I would love to see what makes you as a unique indivudual train even though it might only work for you. I love seeing peoples unique styles. I dont care to read about some crap that is quoted by some journal or book. Lets turn this into a NEW fact finding mission.
No offense just my long journeyed opinion from years of listening and reading basically the same rheotoric
Sleeper

[hrdgain81]

I'll agree on most of it sleeper. But I gotta say that the facts, quotes, and science will help alot of people. Hell I didnt know my ass from my elbo in terms of training and diet when i started. and it took me a long time to hammer down what works for me and what doesnt, shit I'm still working on that.

I love to see what works for others, new ideas and such, but i have learned the most from those who have a educated background on this. If it wasnt for them I'd still be doing 4 sets of 10 on everything like when i was 15yo.

ya gotta be open to everything, and be able to spot the bullshit, thats the tough part .... as for the sense of humor there is no lack of that, just read the shout box

[EricT]

Originally Posted by Hardgain

ya gotta be open to everything, and be able to spot the bullshit, thats the tough part ....

Hell yeah!

Originally Posted by Hardgain

as for the sense of humor there is no lack of that, just read the shout box

Hell yeah again. I've hurt myself laughing at some of the stuff that goes on in the shoutbox. And look at our smileys! That's endless entertainment right there.

I agree with you Sleeper that knowing yourself and how you respond to different things can be one of the biggest criteria in success. But if it was all about personal opinion, instinct, and all that there wouldn't be much to discuss in the end.

You'll find that most of the more experienced people here try to speak to personal experience. Either that or make recomendations that are similar enough to things they have dealt with to make them fairly confident in it's application. Then if they have quotes from articles and journals and diagrams they use that to BACK UP that info but not to replace it. If I say the data says this or that I am not just talking about the data but am relying on my own experience applying that data and what other I know have said regarding their experience. I'm curious as to how much you have read here.

I don't think you'll find a lot of rhetoric around here. Much of what we say goes against the grain of "rhetoric".

Originally Posted by Sleeper

Ive collected Muscle and Fitness, FLex, and Muscle MAg for over 20 years and basically its the same ole blah blah curls bench squat, etc.

The prevaling opinion here is that those mags are not worth wiping your ass with.

Originally Posted by Sleeper

I would love to see what makes you as a unique indivudual train even though it might only work for you. I love seeing peoples unique styles. I dont care to read about some crap that is quoted by some journal or book.

If you want a lot of uninformed personal opionion then you may like a place like BB.com. Most of us here are trying to learn as much as possible, improve on what we are doing to optimize our gains. Just because something works pretty good for you doesn't mean there can be no improving it or there is not a way to make it better. If you are able to do the same type of training day in and day out for years and years and still see consistent gains then you are one lucky individual.

I have cast aside many long held personal beliefs and continue to do so willingly.

[Sleeper]

I have heard that snippet of words allot in here. I have a gut feeling we are all somewhat misinformed deep down. I also have a feeling that allot of folks in here havent been training for 20 plus years either. I would use those two words sparingly. I also think that you take some of what I say verbatim and are not reading the meaning of it. After so many years of training you will start to experiance allot of good ole Da Ja Vu. You will listen to a guy write about curls or squats and say " Ive heard all this before".
I have known a few guys that have been lifting, like me, for dozens of years and we talk about stuff for hours. Allot of it comes from personal experiance not from some article or chart.
Personaly, I've gotten some of the worst advise from new lifters and gurus. I can usually watch a guy train and it will tell me if he knows a thing or two. Actions speak louder than words. I would love to hear about your workouts and any special tweeks you yourself do.
I knew a guy that was 60 years old and he was his own walking bodybuilding book chalked full of experiance good and bad. So, when I give advise on an exercise its not because I read it in a book or had some personal trainer tell me its becuase I had done, done it wrong and got hurt, or done it, and didnt get hurt and gained from it. I could write rosey ass papers about squats but to actualy belt up and sink down is the proof in the pudding.
I think a new guy just needs to get his ass in the gym and do some sets to failure and let the chips fall where they may. Unless he doesnt care about going any farther, reality will eventually smack in teh head and he will correct his screw up. Now, dont take this personal. I know the long quoted articles are done with the best of intentions at heart. But I believe, that we all can speak from the heart a bit more. I believe misinformes is more about a person who just hasnt been at it very long that is all. It takes years and years to grow both mentaly and physicaly. At least 5 plus years naturaly.

[EricT]

We're getting nowhere. This is a forum. The purpose is discussion. Nobody is calling himself a guru. People will disagree with you sometimes. It's not personal and it's not an affront to your 20 years experience. It's up to you to back up what you say and I can tell you that "this is how I feel" is not going to be real convincing.

To tell you the truth, your right. I can't really tell what your are getting at at all. I have no choice but to take what you say verbatim rather than try to grasp some mysterious meaning.

Originally Posted by Sleeper

After so many years of training you will start to experiance allot of good ole Da Ja Vu. You will listen to a guy write about curls or squats and say " Ive heard all this before".

Who's talking about curls and squats anyway? You brought up squat recently, not us. We just responded. You've heard everything on this forum before? Goes back to my original question. How much have you read?

I'll blame myself for these posts since I'm the first one who disregarded your 20 years experience and openly disagreed with you. If you disagreed with anything I said you can be honest and open and try to convince me and everyone else otherwise. I promise I would never take it personally. I'm here to learn. We're all here with open ears waiting to gain from yours and anyone elses experience.

If you want to see what people are doing you can look at the Personal Journals section. You could probably help people out a lot.

I'm doing WS4BB. The only personal tweaks are what alternate exercises I choose and when I choose them.

I don't know why you're implying that everything we say is something we read in a book.

Originally Posted by Sleeper

I think a new guy just needs to get his ass in the gym and do some sets to failure and let the chips fall where they may.

Well then the next time a new guy comes on for advice you can tell him that! But your talking about experiece. Let me point out that the term I used was unimformed, not misinformed. I personally started lifting when I was around twelve. But for many years I was unimformed. Then for many more years I was misinformed. Sure I got gains but I spun my wheels a lot letting the chips fall where they may and learning from my mistakes. If I had had the benefit of access to some of the information here and the help of good friends...well, if only.

As it is when I talk about my experience I don't count a lot of the time I spent wasting my time in the gym. All those years I spent thinking this is the only way and if I just change this one little thing....

We are all here trying to learn. To share our experiences and our mistakes. And what is wrong with that? If I ask for advice why cant I get some well thought out advice? Even if that advice is get in there and lift some heavy weights.

[markdk86]

Disagreeing is natural, but all I see in Sleepers posts is a bunch of whining.

Go write me a emo song.

[Darkhorse]

Originally Posted by Sleeper

Just dont take it too serious. The World is serious enough as it is. I see all kinds of scientific posts on this forumn and thats all great and dandy, more power to you! But,...You know in your heart if your gaining mass and strength or not.

That sounds a lot like a HIT Jedi Metzner follower! Most of the time, they say go with instict since science tells us that HIT is irrational. Look, science tells us that frequency is the best asset for natural gains. I'm sorry. Protein synthesis is elevated for 72 hours after lifting. Members of this forum should absolutely digest every ounce of scientific studies showing stuff like leaving a rep or two in the tank is JUST as productive on hypertrophy than going beyond failure. I charge everyone here to use all the evidence and come up with their own methods..Sure, according to feel/results. But, to ignore all these "scientific studies and results" is not a good idea.

Sleeper, have you been to hypertrophy-specific.com? I suggest you expand your knowledge base beyond "feel" and experience over there. No offense, but as per Hrdgain's signature: "Knowledge speaks, WISDOM listens"

[EricT]

Hardgain shouldn't have changed his signature. But "Leaving the past in the past" is apt too .

I take offense to the Jedi reference though. I frequently wave my hand in front of my face and chant "You are working hard". j/k.

Originally Posted by 0311

Members of this forum should absolutely digest every ounce of scientific studies showing stuff like leaving a rep or two in the tank is JUST as productive on hypertrophy than going beyond failure.

I can tell your from my own "experience" in having been down the failure road and beyond (get it?) that is has been MORE effective for me.

But honestly I wouldn't be surprised if HIT people started saying that their training was handed down from an advanced disembodied alien race and they were soon to be taken up into the mother ship!

[Darkhorse]

Failure works good, but it is the difference between frequennt and infrequent training which is why I recommend leaving a rep or two in the tank.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/content/page-238.html Lifting to fail? With ref

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?act...e&articleID=20 Dr Fred Hatfield

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-...ertraining.asp CNS fatigue from failure training

http://www.strengthcats.com/CPworkingtofailure.htm Poliquin, training to failure

http://www.charliefrancis.com/index....=25&Itemi d=2 article about HIT vs reg training in sports

http://www.cbass.com/KevinDye.htm Hit advocate stops training to failure

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sisco2.htm Pete Sisko, training to failure not necessary. Including why the last rep is not nec the most productive

http://www.timinvermont.com/fitness/failure.htm Training to failure not necessary

http://bodybuilding.com/fun/wade2.htm Natural BB talks about why failure training is not necessary

http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/failure.html failure training not nec including refs.

http://www.redwhiteandbluefitness.co...ShowPage/31534 article about CNS with refs

http://staff.washington.edu/griffin/failure.txt Killer article by Lyle McDonald re: training to failure

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength/archives/ls12.htm Louie Simmons

http://www.drdarden.com/readTopic.do?id=394848 failure training owned on HIT site no less

[EricT]

Pete Sisko, training to failure not necessary. Including why the last rep is not nec the most productive

I love it. Even Pete Sisko, whose early books were largely a thinly disguised attempt to combine concepts of HIT, partial reps, and science is side-stepping. And this is a guy who stated that the only way muscles could grow was to "overload the CNS"

He actually counceled that as your ability to recover to higher and higher workload diminishes you may have to take up to three weeks between workouts. Not even between bodyparts, between workouts!

Course he's still a dumbass. The failure article is from 2001; this from 2002:

Originally Posted by Sisco

Amazing Progress by "Doing Nothing"

Originally Posted by Sisco

Once you understand how to adjust your personal training frequency, your results will soar. Here's an example of what happened for a very tough-minded client of mine named Stanley.

After we discussed his training and lack of progress - particularly in the barbell shrug exercise - I told Stanley to take three weeks off of all training. He said there was no way he could stay out of the gym that long. Actually, this is a common problem with serious bodybuilders. Psychologically, when you want to make progress, it is very difficult to do what seems like "nothing." Not training feels like throwing in the towel or admitting defeat in some way. But the truth is your body needs time to recover. Time off is not wasted time; it's time that is critical to the growth process. It took a lot of talk to convince Stanley but, to his credit, he took three weeks off of all training.

Two months later he called me back with results that will shock you. His strength increased in every area of his body and his shrug power had skyrocketed. His first workout after the layoff was a personal best. Now he's training once every nine days. That's 18 days between workouts for the same bodyparts, because he uses an upper/lower body split. Before this correction in his training frequency, Stanley was training four times in just nine days. Look at the numbers that he sent me.

Will the madness never end?