Squat + knee = abnormal pain?

[Darkvision]

Hey guys. I've been closely following Rippetoe's Starting Strength guide for a few weeks now, and a problem keeps occurring during my squat execution. That is my right knee, just above it, hurts like hell during every squat. It feels as if when I go down / come up [during the squat] it's bursting, and it hurts very much afterwards as well, I forced myself to finish a set and stopped there because I wanted to avoid injury. The same pain is felt when doing a free squat, just not as bad due to the lack of weight. What do you think could be causing this? Is it my form perhaps? I tried widening my footstance (with a lighter weight of course) and doing all sorts of minor adjustments to my form but nothing seems to be working. Should I just suck it up and go execute the squat squinting in pain or is this the dumb thing to do because it's most likely that im injuring myself?

[EricT]

First off if I've been squatting really heavy for a while without much break I get a little knee "discomfort". Nothing major and certainly not enough to cause me any distress. Generally after I've taken a break from going really heavy for a little while my knees are good to go. But I'm old, btw. The point is that even having good form, a little wear and tear, and general discomfort goes with the territory.

But it sounds like you have a little injury brewing. It may not necessarily been cause by the squats. In general if you squat A2G and have good form, don't bounce, etc. it's good for your knees. It could be however that you are doing some things wrong. You have to take care that you knees don't come out way far over your toes at the bottom. It may not be possible for them not to come out a little but you need to be aware of this. Make sure you are squatting off your heals and not you toes. Make sure that your knees are in line with you toes. Try to sit back into the squat and then drive off of your heals using glute and ham action.

Make sure you go as low as possible (at least break parallel while maintaining neutral spine). One of the worst things you can do to your knees it to try to arrest the downward movement at some point rather than taking them through their range of motion. This will suddenly transfer the load to your knees.

But right now I think you need to take a break from it before you turn it into a permanent problem as the kind of pain you are getting is abnormal for sure. When they say no pain no gain that is not the kind of pain they are talking about..well, except for idiots

Read the injuries stiky to see if anything applies to you. If you only get pain on the squat and not in general just walking around you'll probably be ok. You'll need to take a break and get back into it with very light weights and concentrate on learning the movement while paying attention to your knees. Heavy and correct are mutually exclusive a lot of the time. You may have gone into the program too heavy.

[Darkvision]

Thanks a ton for the help, your description of what I should be doing during the actual squat has made me realize that I've been doing a lot of things wrongs concerning my form from the thighs down. I'm sure it's not too serious, I did a lot of free squats today and the pain did not arise. It only happens during the squat exercise and im sure if I follow through with proper form it should disappear almost completely...hopefully this will be the last you hear from me on this issue

[EricT]

Sounds like good news. It's better to be doing something wrong and be able to correct it than to have an unknown injury injury anytime! Just be careful like I said.

Here is an article from the Training Articles section that should reinforce some of the things I said and fill in all the various details I left out: http://www.bodybuilding.net/training...squat-925.html

Good luck.

[Darkvision]

Man!!! I can't believe I missed that thread sticky, that's amazing information, I never even took a look at that until now. Gulping up every word thank you .

edit: seems as though I've determined my spinal erectors are weak. (lol not relating to my knees or anything above) I've come to this conclusion because on my way up around my second set I tend to usually lean to one side and completely lose my form, it happens right when im coming out of the hole. any ideas? am I right about spinal erectors needing strengthening? if this is the case what exercises can I do to strengthen that muscle group? I could be completely wrong about me "wobbling" my way up because of my weak back muscles, but I can't think of any other reason =/ hehe thanks again.

[EricT]

Trying to isolate one muscle of the trunk and blame it for the cause of any stabilization problem is a mistake. A lot of people do this and what they will end up with is strength imablances that will lead to more problems. There are a multutude of trunk muslces that all fire together to affect stabilization of the trunk during the squat. Both front to back stabilization and side to side. Just a cursory glance at "lateral flexion" will bring up the spinal erectors and the obliques but even then you wouldn't necessarily have the whole picture.

With what you are doing, having begun the Rippletoe, if you have a case where leg strength outwieghs trunk strength, coupled with the other problems you described, then, to me, it all comes down to being too heavy. In order to train the core musculature using functional movements like the squat you have to be able to maintain proper form and movement patterns. If those things are breakig down then you are "building in" incorrect patterns that will lead to and excacerbate these problems.

This program has you doing a lot of squatting and you are deadlifting. There is a place in it for assistance exercises for the back as well as the abbominal training but at this point anything you do is just as likely to be a detriment as a help.

It's always better to keep it simple. If you are wobbly during the squat then use a weight that you don't wobble on and build on it slowly. The strengthening of the core is paramount. It is the foundation of strength. If you take your time with the weight it will catch up. You can couple that with the abs, perhaps with the addition of obliques and maybe some reverse hypers.
But nothing overcomplicated. If you has been doing this for months my answer might be different but you said a few weeks. IMO, it is simply too early to be running into major problems so that leads me to believe it is too heavy.

[triqqey]

hopefully it's that simple...
had the same problem last year, went to the doctor and found out my knees don't have as much cartilage as before

could just be bad form, though

[EricT]

Well I would alway say to anyone to not let internet advice replace a doctor. I'm also making a lot of assumptions...

But triggey I'm thinking if you lost cartilage in your knees it would hurt all the time (at least when moving around)? I don't know, I'm just asking.

[triqqey]

it hurt a little bit, but mostly when moving around kinda fast. even jogging hurt a lot. walking around was fine as long as I didn't climb stairs too fast. MSM helped rebuild the cartilage a bit, but it did take a while, and I had to give up squats... along with most weight lifting.

[EricT]

I'm sorry to hear that. That is what I though about the pain. In my experience with injuries you can have an offending exercise that is hurting you but the pain won't necessarily follow you around. Then your correct the problems and your alright. Obviously it's nothing but and observation.