Sumo or Conventional Deadlifts - Bodybuilding Discussion on Bodybuilding.net Training Forum

_Wolf_ · 01-23-2007, 09:33 PM

this is some info which i thought could or could NOT be useful.

i got it from _Dominik_'s journal over at bb.com who is anyone knows is one of the most knolwedgeable monsters out there. here is the link to his journal in case anyone is interested: http://www.forum.bodybuilding.com/sh...d.php?t=923702

anyways, he was giving a few guys some tips on deadlifting (because at the age of 22 he is DL'ing close to 600 for reps and he's doing it VERY sesnsibly and cautiously) and this is something he posted:

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Dominik_

Quote:

Originally Posted by lhprop1

It depends on what you're training for. If you're training for a sport, such as football, you should really be deadlifting conventional. Strongman contests don't allow sumo style, so you're forced to lift conventional.

If you're training for powerlifting, it's not quite as simple. Ultimately, you have to go with which style is more comfortable, but you can determine which method will allow you to lift the most weight biomechanically. To do so, follow this method.

1. Secure a tape measure to the wall with the zero end at the floor. Make sure the metric side (centimeters) is what you are using.

2. Stand with your back against the wall. Measure from the top of your shoulder to the floor. This will give you your total body measurement.

3. With a straight arm and your hand in a fist, measure from the top of your shoulder to the middle of your fist. This is your total arm length.

4. Raise your thigh to determine where your thigh rotates into your pelvis. Once located, lower your leg to the floor and measure from the top of the shoulder to this point. This is your trunk length. Also, subtract this measurement from your total body measurement to give you your lower body length.

Record these measurements and perform the following calculations:

1. Divide "trunk length" by "arm length".
2. Divide "trunk length" by "lower body length".

The resultant numbers will tell you the following:

1. Arm to trunk length ratio. Example: If your truk is 50 cm and your armi is 65 cm, divide 65 into 50=0.77. This indicates that your trunk is 77% of your arm length or that your arm is 23% longer than your trunk.

2. Trunk to lower body length ratio.

These numbers will help you determine which method, conventional or sumo, will allow you to lift the most weight by biomechanical standards.

CONVENTIONAL
If your trunk to arm ratio is less than 0.82 and your trunk to lower body length is less than 0.55, you should consider the conventional style. With your arms longer than your trunk, you'll finish the pull with the bar below your hip joint. This finishing position indicates that the initial starting position of your trunk (trunk angle) will be larger (more upright). This would indicate more activity from the quads as well as the hamstrings and glutes. A more upright trunk angle will also create a larger knee angle at the starting position, making the shift of the shoulders, knee, and hip more uniform-that is, they rotate in a biomechanically correct sequence.

SUMO
If your ratios are larger than 0.82 and 0.55, the initial starting angle of your trunk would be smaller (more inclined) and will therefore position you in a biomechanically ineffecient position. With your trunk more inclined, the activity of your trunk and hip extension muscles will have to follow a different, more inefficient pattern. This will basically result in increased activity from your hamstrings and glutes and decreased activity from the quads. This will also increase stress on your erectors and particularly the lower back and could cause rounding of your upper back. The solution would be sumo.

Hope this helps.

well, as per this i should be doing sumo deads but i find them to be a bit too uncomfortable.....plus: i don need to do them in this program im on but i thought this article is interesting for someone else perhaps...

EricT · 01-24-2007, 11:16 AM

I think that's good info at least as a starting point for which may be best for you. But ultimately you have to experiment. I'm definitely "built" for conventionals but I have tried sumos for a while...which felt consistently unnatural to me.

I hate even looking at that forum, lol. People vote on journals or something? Give me a break.

_Wolf_ · 01-24-2007, 11:22 AM

^^^ people vote on journals??? wow....even i didnt know that

EricT · 01-24-2007, 11:30 AM

I don't know, something about 5 stars or whatever. There is just so much useless stuff to read through.

On the sumo vs. conventional I think there are a few things that are important to point out. The main one is the difference between what powerlifters do and what is appropriate or that fits the goals of the average guy. Powerlifters are only concerned about lifting the most possible. With sumo the distance is less and less enerygy expenditure is required. If it works for them there is a good reason to do it on that basis. It is only about numbers.

But the effect it has is much different. You want to build your back and posterior chain you'd be better off with conventionals. If you want the strength derived from that to be more applicable to real world stiutations you may want conventionals too. You may have a guy who can really only do one of the other with any success because of the way he is built but on average the one you pick as your main focus has a lot to do with your specific goals.

_Wolf_ · 01-24-2007, 11:36 AM

^^aah.....ok ok.....

oh, and on the journal rating thingy: we have that here too

EricT · 01-24-2007, 11:44 AM

yeah i see that. I guess it's supposed to encourage people to be more detailed and comprehensive. But at least people don't feel the need to post how many stars they give something or say "subscribed" all the time or go on and on about how many reputation points they are giving out. I can't get to through a thread with all that....I give up in disgust.

But back on point

Here are some of the proposed benefits to sumo:

1. Greater range of knee extension at the bottom of the lift.
2. A more upright posture.
3. The distance the weight must be moved is greatly reduced.
4. The bar path is kept closer to the body, thus making the levers more efficient.

Less shear forces of course but no real difference in compressive forces. It takes less power output supposedly for the sumo due to the lesser distance traveled. Interestingly analysis have shown no real difference in the time factor between sumo and conventional lifters.

But you can talk about biomechanical effeciency all you want and it doesn't mean that one way or another will automatically be better for any one person. Lots of people trying sumo will be losing a lot of pounds on it no matter how hard they try, and vice versa.

01-24-2007, 11:16 AM	#2 (permalink)
EricT Moderator Rank: Heavyweight Experience: 7-10 Years Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,885 Country: Gender:	I think that's good info at least as a starting point for which may be best for you. But ultimately you have to experiment. I'm definitely "built" for conventionals but I have tried sumos for a while...which felt consistently unnatural to me. I hate even looking at that forum, lol. People vote on journals or something? Give me a break.
	EricT's Sig:I'm tired of the myth that bb'rs aren't flexible. As a group, they are extremely flexible. They have an amazing ability to bend over, place their heads between their legs, and blow smoke up their own asses. Books and Resources

01-24-2007, 11:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
_Wolf_ Rank: Light Heavyweight Experience: 3-5 Years Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Trinity University, San Antonio, Texas Posts: 3,857 Gender:	^^^ people vote on journals??? wow....even i didnt know that
	_Wolf_'s Sig:Training Log APT Pro Wrist Straps

01-24-2007, 11:30 AM	#4 (permalink)
EricT Moderator Rank: Heavyweight Experience: 7-10 Years Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,885 Country: Gender:	I don't know, something about 5 stars or whatever. There is just so much useless stuff to read through. On the sumo vs. conventional I think there are a few things that are important to point out. The main one is the difference between what powerlifters do and what is appropriate or that fits the goals of the average guy. Powerlifters are only concerned about lifting the most possible. With sumo the distance is less and less enerygy expenditure is required. If it works for them there is a good reason to do it on that basis. It is only about numbers. But the effect it has is much different. You want to build your back and posterior chain you'd be better off with conventionals. If you want the strength derived from that to be more applicable to real world stiutations you may want conventionals too. You may have a guy who can really only do one of the other with any success because of the way he is built but on average the one you pick as your main focus has a lot to do with your specific goals.
	EricT's Sig:I'm tired of the myth that bb'rs aren't flexible. As a group, they are extremely flexible. They have an amazing ability to bend over, place their heads between their legs, and blow smoke up their own asses. Books and Resources

01-24-2007, 11:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
_Wolf_ Rank: Light Heavyweight Experience: 3-5 Years Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Trinity University, San Antonio, Texas Posts: 3,857 Gender:	^^aah.....ok ok..... oh, and on the journal rating thingy: we have that here too
	_Wolf_'s Sig:Training Log APT Pro Wrist Straps

01-24-2007, 11:44 AM	#6 (permalink)
EricT Moderator Rank: Heavyweight Experience: 7-10 Years Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 5,885 Country: Gender:	yeah i see that. I guess it's supposed to encourage people to be more detailed and comprehensive. But at least people don't feel the need to post how many stars they give something or say "subscribed" all the time or go on and on about how many reputation points they are giving out. I can't get to through a thread with all that....I give up in disgust. But back on point Here are some of the proposed benefits to sumo: 1. Greater range of knee extension at the bottom of the lift. 2. A more upright posture. 3. The distance the weight must be moved is greatly reduced. 4. The bar path is kept closer to the body, thus making the levers more efficient. Less shear forces of course but no real difference in compressive forces. It takes less power output supposedly for the sumo due to the lesser distance traveled. Interestingly analysis have shown no real difference in the time factor between sumo and conventional lifters. But you can talk about biomechanical effeciency all you want and it doesn't mean that one way or another will automatically be better for any one person. Lots of people trying sumo will be losing a lot of pounds on it no matter how hard they try, and vice versa.
	EricT's Sig:I'm tired of the myth that bb'rs aren't flexible. As a group, they are extremely flexible. They have an amazing ability to bend over, place their heads between their legs, and blow smoke up their own asses. Books and Resources

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