2 day split routine
 

Hi,

I just want to get some feedback on a new routine I'm putting together. I've done fullbody workouts for about a year now and now want to try out a split routine.

Goal is to gain mass

Workout A

Incline DB Bench 5 x 5
Decline barbell Bench 3 x 8-10

Pull ups 4 x failure
DB rows 5 x 5

Barbell curls 3 x 6-8

Workout B

Deadlift 5 x 5
Leg Extensions 4 x 10

Military press 5 x 5
Lateral raise 3 x 8-10

Close-grip bench 3 x 6-8


Workout A - Monday and Friday
Workout B - Tuesday and Saturday

I have knee issues, squatting movements are out of the question. Deadlifts are about the only proper exercise I can do for legs. The leg extensions are only in there for something extra. I know they are not a very good exercise. I will try to replace them with lunges or bulgarian squats in time.

Is there anything I should add or change ?

Do an upper/lower split or a push/pull split. The split you posted doesn't make much sense to me. Can you do leg press?

why doesn't it make sense ?

The reason I don't want to do an uppler/lower split is because I can't do much for legs, so I thought I'd spread it out. Plus, I don't like working chest and shoulders in the same workout, as one will always be sacrificed.

No access to a leg press either. I train at home.

make this into:

Incline DB Bench 5 x 5
Pull ups 4 x failure

Decline barbell Bench 3 x 8-10
DB rows 5 x 5

Barbell curls 3 x 6-8

change this into

Deadlift 3x5
Military Press 5x5

Lunges 3x10
Close Grip Bench Press 3x6-8

Glute Ham Raises 2-3 sets

don't expect this routine to work forever. you will need to make improvements and adjustments in weights, reps and sets. the exercise selection by itself is fine. do your hip mobility work, etc.

regarding your knees...people who have had knee injuries and been told that they can never again squat, have come back to set records. i believe on of the 800 or 900 lbs squatters used to have massive knee problems after his accident and his doctor told him that he could never lift again. they guy went on to set the world squat record plus he had some good bench and deadlift numbers too (i cant remember this guy off the top of my head).

look into squats (squatting properly = as deep as you can = WAY below parallel assuming you dont have hamstring flexibility problems) and see if perhaps squatting slightly once a week and then working on form for even 6 months will lead to correct squatting. look into this.

ofcourse, if you are completely incapacitated and cannot squat no matter what....then you might need to make some changes.

good luck.

thanks wolf, I actually thought about alternating the exercises that way so I could hit them harder, so I might give that a try. Is this enough volume ?

About the squatting. Mate I wish I could. I've tried a few times. But after a couple of sessions the knee gets progressively worse. Same thing with lunges and Bulgarian squats, but I'm going to try again with these, starting light and slowly slowly working my way up. Hey, I've got to do the best with what I've got.

Bench press is primarily a shoulder exercise. That's why I prefer to do chest & shoulders on the same day. Otherwise you'll be doing shoulders & triceps two days in a row.

yeah true, but I'm really trying to bring up my Military Press, hence separating it from chest day. I think a bit of overlap is good.

I understand trying to bring up your military. I'm doing the same thing. That's why I do military for my first pressing movement. It's easy to prioritize it that way.

Why is overlap good?

because if you are doing a split and if you have large overlap it means your frequency of hitting each muscle group is more. does this make sense? i never look at this stuff in terms of muscle groups...i like to break things down into lifts.

its more than enough volume. you need to learn to progress and hence wave the volume a bit as you go on. for example,

Decline barbell Bench 3 x 8-10

this means that lets say you start out with 100 lbs on this exercise, ok?

Week 1 = 100 lbs x 8 reps x 3 sets
Week 2 = 100 lbs x 9 reps x 3 sets
Week 3 = 100 lbs x 10 reps x 3 sets
Week 4 = 110 lbs x 8 reps x 3 sets
Week 5 = 110 lbs x 9 reps x 3 sets
Week 6 = 110 lbs x 10 reps x 3 sets
Week 7 = 120 lbs x 8 reps x 3 sets
etc

do not take anything other than Pull-ups to failure.

so if you have knee problems, do the following...

look up http://www.bulletproofknees.com/ and buy that book ASAP

do whatever is written out for you in that book.

learn to do things slowly. for example, lets say you start squatting today, alright? perhaps going all the way down is hurting your knees? no problem..here's the solution: squat onto a box. Next week, squat onto a smaller box. Then squat the week after into an even smaller box. Slowly and steadily, you will build up the capacity to squat deep. Read up on squatting form. watch other people's videos who have good form (do not look at anyone at a powerlifting meet and think that is good form because its NOT) and then mimic the exact form. once you have succeeded in hitting a decent depth (lets say it takes you 3 months at the most, ok?) then focus on using weight. So take the empty bar and squat. Just use the empty bar for the first week. then add 5 lbs to the bar every week from there on. Before you know it in 2 years you'll be repping 225 lbs. Its only when you take these small baby steps will you be able to reach your goals.

If that book is too expensive for you, buy Eric Cressey's book called Maximum Strength: http://www.ericcressey.com/maximumstrength.html and do the warm-ups in the book. they will help with flexibility and mobility. do them slowly and cautiously. do not rush into things. if lets say you do a particular exercise and it hurts your knees the next day...lets say it hurts unbearably, then it means one of the two:
1.) you werent doing a particular exercise correctly
2.) that exercise is bad for you

if it is #2 then drop the exercise.

good luck, dude and read up on the injuries sticky posted here by Eric3237

I started to say no, but I see what you're getting at. I still don't agree although maybe I should. If that's your reasoning, then why not do a squat variation every day of the week? (example)

EDIT: I guess it comes down to how much is too much. If you're doing Workout A and then Workout B the next day, you'll only most likely need a day of rest in between. So you'll be averaging 5-6 workouts a week. Is that not enough frequency?

you could do that. why couldn't you?

olympic atheletes sometimes train 6 times a DAY for 6 days a WEEK!!!

it's all about optimizing recovery.

firstly, in no way am i saying splits are good. i would never do a split.

however, if lets say that someone really want to do a split, then this could be a good split:

Day 1: Back
Day 2: Off
Day 3: Chest and Biceps
Day 4: Legs
Day 5: off
Day 6: Shoulders and Triceps
Day 7: Off

Now, on back day you could do deadlifts, on chest day you could do flat and incline, on leg day you could do squats and on shoulders day you could do presses.

this does not bring frequency up to 2x a week (like how an upper-lower does) however, with good exercise selection you could bring frequency up to 1.5x

regarding your question about doing squat variations every day of the week, in practical programming, rippetoe outlines loading parameters for those who want to train 6x a week
Monday: Heavy
Tuesday: Medium
Wednesday: Light
Thursday: Heavy
Friday: Light
Saturday: Medium
Sunday: Off
This is supposed to work.

If you asked me what I genuinely think, id say:
1.) splits are my last choice
2.) squatting 2-3x a week is fine. more than that and i have to take special care of my joints + mobility

oh i didnt read that....he's doing it M/T T/F

OP: do this on a MWF basis...not a 4 day a week rotation. This is A/B/A/B/A/B/A/B, etc on a MWF rotation...

thanks for pointing that out to me, Ross.

I'm learning. :) I love that feeling.

I think that beginners are not at all good at optimizing recovery. That's why I don't like overlap.

me too (about learning)..i spent last week doing silly things. now i know not to do them.

me either. i agree with you 100%.

You guys are combining bodybuilding mentality with strength training mentality and thus confusing me greatly.

Are we talking about training movements are training bodyparts? Pick one. Combining the two modes of thought will always give you a hodgepodge.

Some general suggestions for your knees based on what you've said and a lot of assuming:

Do more posterior chain work. Lower the volume on deadlift and then supplement that with more pc work like romanians, pullthroughs, the aforementioned glute/ham raises. This is to strengthen the hams and activate/strengthen the glutes as I'll bet you are quad dominant. Pullthroughs, imo, would be the best thing to start with.

You'll want to work on hip mobility and check on ankle mobility. Lack of hip and ankle mobility are actually the two main causes of most knee problems.

You should try stretching the hip flexors and quads a bit. Foam rolling for both of them would be a good idea. You'll probably want an iliotibial band stretch (itb) and a piriformis stretch. As well as foam roller work for the ITB and TFL. [ info: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle....4-021-training ]

Work on lumbar stability. Activating and strenthening the entire core. Do planks and other stability exercises.

Work on thoracic mobility.

For single leg work don't go straight to bulgarian squats. See if you can do static split squats. That is basically a bulgarian without the back leg elevated. Work on keeping the torso staight and the knee in line. Pick a stride length that feels good and see how you do with that. If you can't do that with movement try a split squat isometric hold. DROP THE LEG EXTENSIONS. They are probably doing more harm than good. Don't do leg press as this will just further the imbalance.

You can also try step ups.

Wolf is correct in suggesting you may be able to box squat. Heck, depending on the nature of your problems you may do better with front squats rather than back squats. But you may want to address some of these other areas first for a while. As he mentioned you have to evaluate whether you are donig those things which cause you pain CORRECTLY. Maybe if technique was corrected certain pain causing things would no longer be a poblem and those may be some things that would help to correct the imbalances. That's always the thing to check first before you just choose different things....

For more info on these kinds of things check out Mike Robertson and Eric Cressey. They will also point the way to other names to look for. Mike Boyle for instance.

Yes, all this has to do with knees :)

You're right, it was a hodgepogenous discussion. I think if we had clarified more beforehand, then the discussion would have been shorter. And more clear.

thanks for the advice guys. I have read through several threads by Robertson and Cressey and they do provide a lot of good information.

My knee problem is a tricky one. When I do squatting movements I get a pain on my medial knee. I also have small floating bone fragments on the lateral side, that most of the time after a few reps, move around and get stuck or something and my lateral knee tightens up and the pain is unbearable. I just have to move the bony bit with my hand and all is good again. I can run and ride my bike, it's just weight bearing exercises that causes problems. I deadlift with smaller plates, maybe the size of 35's. This causes no problem whatsoever for my knees. I have done reps with about 110kg and no problems with the knees. I've seen a couple of therapists but no joy.

I foam roll my legs, itb and hips, although not on a regular basis. I should probably get strict with this.

I think I'll just keep doing my deadlifts and start working in some very light split squats and progress very slowly and see how I go. When the knee feels good enough, I'll start with light squats. I've tried this approach before, but I rushed it and started adding too much weight. This time I'll take it really slow.

Good luck. Can't you have those frags removed?

Thanks mate. Yeah, I'm sure I could get them removed, but I don't have private health insurance and don't want to spend the money on it right now. I'll probably get it done somewhere down the track.

Good luck. Take care of your knees.

Had my first couple of sessions on Monday and Tuesday. Monday I did:

pullups 4x12-6
db row 5x5

Inc DB bench 5x5
flat bench 3x10

bb curls 3x8

Tuesday I did:

Military Press 5x5
Deadlifts 5x5
CG bench 2x10
light squats 3x10

Did only 10kg on the bar for squats and they felt pretty good, no knee troubles. I'll progress with caution from here. Maybe adding 5kg a workout and backing off at any sign of pain. Also been foam rolling the quads, itb and hips most nights. (how often should foam rolling be done and for how long at a time. Anyone ?)

The bench work on Monday really fried my shoulders. So the next day when I did Military press, although I did beat my previous workout by a couple of reps with more rest thrown in, I didn't feel recovered enough to do shoulders. I don't know if this was just a one off because of the upped volume for chest or not.

So for next workout I will switch to

Friday

Military Press 5x5
light Squats 3-4x10
Inc DB bench 5x5
Flat db bench 3x10
CG bench 2x10
maybe some lateral raises

Saturday

Deadlift 5x5
Pull ups 4xfailure
db rows 5x5
BB curls 3x8

If this workout feels better I'll do Military press first then bench on one workout and then opposite the next. The squats in between should let the shoulders recover a touch.