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Training discussion on Beginner question, within the Bodybuilding Forum; Your probably not overtaining in a systemic sense although your shoulders are probably taking a beating on day 1. If ...


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Old 06-08-2008, 09:22 AM   #11
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Your probably not overtaining in a systemic sense although your shoulders are probably taking a beating on day 1. If you are trying to improve strength then there is no reason to have all the pressing shoved together on one day. You should have some pressing and some rowing/pullups/pulldown on day one and then do the rest on day three...

Also there isn't any sense in doing flat bench for four rep sets followed by incline bench for 4 rep sets. Simply speaking you could probably lift a bit heavier and get some more volume on one of the lifts. Then go to a secondary for higher reps. Preferable a dumbell bench press, imo.

I mentioned in your other thread about making sure your deadlift technique is correct. That's paramount.

You back being smoked like that is most likely a function of endurance and core conditioning/activation. You back may be taking too much of the stabilization load and also lacking in stength endurance. Hip extensions (like back extensions except the back is set and you use the hips) for high reps plus statics can help with the endurance. Planks of all kinds. Front plate squats to get the abs in the game.

Without knowing what your deads look like though it is difficult to advize. Could be some flexibility/strength imbalance that is simply transferring to load to the back improperly. Tight hip flexors, hamstrings and erectors and weak inactive glutes will do this. Improper form would exacerbate it.

I've had the same problem before though and sense I knew that my technique was good and my glutes were active I took care of it with lots of core endurance work and the extensions I spoke of. Statics especially.

Also a proper "classic" Romanian deadlift can help greatly on the endurance front. Basically you take a many pronged approach.

This kind of thing I am speaking of is one of the proper uses of volume when building strength. For instance there are much better uses of volume than those lying leg curls in terms of contribution to your overall strength and moving the big lifts.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 06-08-2008, 07:52 PM   #12
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Thanks for the help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric3237 View Post
Your probably not overtaining in a systemic sense although your shoulders are probably taking a beating on day 1. If you are trying to improve strength then there is no reason to have all the pressing shoved together on one day. You should have some pressing and some rowing/pullups/pulldown on day one and then do the rest on day three....
I'm not familiar with doing pushing and pulling exercices on the same day. Is that preferable to what I am doing by splitting up push/pull exercises on differnt days? What routine would you recommend that would be preferable to what I am doing now?

Quote:
Also there isn't any sense in doing flat bench for four rep sets followed by incline bench for 4 rep sets. Simply speaking you could probably lift a bit heavier and get some more volume on one of the lifts. Then go to a secondary for higher reps. Preferable a dumbell bench press, imo.
Should I increase the number of sets for flat benching and replace the incline barbell bench press with incline dumbell bench presses?

Quote:
I mentioned in your other thread about making sure your deadlift technique is correct. That's paramount.
I'm sure my form on the deadlifts isn't great, especially since I'm doing low reps now and trying to see how heavy I can lift.

Quote:
You back being smoked like that is most likely a function of endurance and core conditioning/activation. You back may be taking too much of the stabilization load and also lacking in stength endurance. Hip extensions (like back extensions except the back is set and you use the hips) for high reps plus statics can help with the endurance. Planks of all kinds. Front plate squats to get the abs in the game.

Without knowing what your deads look like though it is difficult to advize. Could be some flexibility/strength imbalance that is simply transferring to load to the back improperly. Tight hip flexors, hamstrings and erectors and weak inactive glutes will do this. Improper form would exacerbate it.
I'm definately lacking in all areas so I'm sure I'm lacking in all the areas you mentioned: endurance, strength endurance, core conditioning/activation. I've never done any type of back/hip extensions or planks. Can those be done with a regular bench or is there a special aparatus for that? I've also never done front plate squats either, is that more of an ab exercise or should it work the quads like a regular squat?

Quote:
This kind of thing I am speaking of is one of the proper uses of volume when building strength. For instance there are much better uses of volume than those lying leg curls in terms of contribution to your overall strength and moving the big lifts.
If the lying leg curls aren't a good choice, what would I replace them with? I'm not familiar with other exercises that work the hamstrings.

Thanks again for the help. I'm really putting in a big effort with the lifting and I would hate to do be doing it wrong and getting nowhere fast.
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Old 06-09-2008, 03:40 AM   #13
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Overtraining is a result of not getting enough restitution between your training sessions, so if you feel on top of the world, and brimming with energy when you enter the gym, you're not overtrained. I'd say that with your routine, you'd have to work pretty damn hard to get overtrained, since you only train each muscle group once each week.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john917v View Post
f you are sore after every workout, it's probably a good indication.

soreness has zero indication of anything. please do not post such rubbish. this is a huge misconception and when you post something like this you are misleading the OP.

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Old 06-13-2008, 11:43 AM   #15
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in accordance with what Eric said, Riley, you should look into working out more frequently. By this I am no referring to more than 1x a week workouts but more in terms of muscles and lifts.

If you have read the stickies in this forum (especially the sticky "why you arent growing" then you will know that it is more advantageous for you to think in terms of lifts rather than muscles.

in the same way, you routine below can be broken up into an upper-lower program which you rotate on a sunday/tuesday/thursday schedule.

in other words, your workout will look like:

Week 1
Sun - Lower 1
Tue - Upper 1
Thu - Lower 2

Week 2
Sun - Upper 2
Tue - Lower 1
Thu - Upper 1

Week 3
Sun - Lower 2
Tue - Upper 2
Thu - Lower 1

etc etc etc

The four workouts which you have to do are:

Lower 1
Deadlifts 2-3 sets x 3-5 reps
Squats 2 sets x 5-10 reps
Glute Ham Raises 3-4 sets
Front Plate Squats 2-3 sets

Upper 1
Flat Barbell Bench Press 3 sets x 5 reps
Pull-ups 5 sets to failure
Low Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 2-3 sets of 6-12 reps
Hanging Leg Raises 2-3 sets

Lower 2
Squats 3 sets x 5 reps
Romanian Deadlifts 3 sets x 10-12 reps
Leg Curls 2 sets x 10-12 reps
Reverse Crunches 3 sets

Upper 2
Military Press 3 sets x 5 reps
Cable Rows 3-4 sets x 6-12 reps
Facepulls 2-3 sets x 12-15 reps
Front Planks 2-3 sets (timed)

so have a look at the above routine and tell us what you think...

i have left the loading parameters fairly open to you. you can choose how to progress. but you must roughly have a plan.

for example, on lower 1 you have deadlifts for 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps
now, if you start out doing 3 sets x 5 reps x 225 lbs, then you can play around with such a progression scheme
Week 1 = 3 sets x 3 reps x 265 lbs
Week 2 = 3 sets x 4 reps x 265 lbs
Week 3 = 3 sets x 5 reps x 265 lbs
etc etc

you can progress by either increasing the weight, increasing the reps or increasing the number of sets. any of these is possible either on their own or you can do two of them at the same time.

also, what are your current maxes on the big 3 lifts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RileyMartin View Post
Thank you for the help. Here is my current routine.

Sunday
-------
Bench Press - 3 or 4 sets of 4 reps
Incline Bench Press - 3 sets of 4 reps
Military Press - 3 sets of 4 reps
Standing Dumbell Side Raises - 2 sets of 10 reps

Tuesday
--------
Squats - 3 or 4 sets of 4 reps
Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets of 8 to 10 reps
Standing One Leg Calf Raises - 2 sets of 12 reps

Thursday
---------
Deadlifts - 3 sets of 4 reps
Bent Over Barbell Rows - 3 sets of 6 to 7 reps
Lat Bar Pulldowns - 3 sets of 6 to 8 reps
Barbell Curls - 3 sets of 6 reps
Dumbell Curls - 1 set of 6 reps
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:27 PM   #16
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Wow, thanks for putting in the time and providing all that info. I need all the help I can get.

My current routine has me working each body part once/week with the same exercises and getting a whole week of rest before repeating.

The LOWER1, UPPER1, LOWER2, UPPER2 routine is very different from what I am doing now. I see it alternates working either upper body or lower body twice/week and alternates chest and shoulder exercises and different variations on back exercises.

I can give your workout a try however I am a little concerned about not getting enough rest/recuperation between workouts. I read a lot of the stickies and how important it is to get enough rest and to 'stimulate' the muscles and not 'annhilate' them. I've only been doing this for 6 months now and lost when I read conflicting points of view.

My max lifts are as follows:

Squat - 350lbs - 4 sets of 4 reps. I haven't tried a one rep max.
Deadlift - 365lbs. - one rep max. I tried 400lbs. but couldn't even budge it. I know I could do 375lbs, maybe 385lbs.
Bench - 275lbs. I think I could do 285lbs., maybe 295lbs.

Are facepulls another term for doing pulldows to your chest with a lat bar?

I'm still not sure what front planks are. What type of bench/machine would I need to do them?

Withe the front plate squats, do I literally 'hug' a 45lb. plate and squat or do I squat with the bar on the front of my shoulders?

Thanks again for your help. I'm really putting in a big effort with lifting and want to make sure I go about it the right way.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:40 PM   #17
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front plate squats...just hold the plate out in front of you....

and planks no machine needed.

http://www.abs-exercise-advice.com/plank.html


and your still only working out 3 days a week....so i would not worry about rest/recuperation with what wolf lined out...he would not steer you wrong

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Old 06-13-2008, 07:41 PM   #18
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I prefer compound exercises but your workout is not that bad. You might want to mix in some body exercises like pushups, pull ups and chin ups...

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Old 06-14-2008, 06:15 AM   #19
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Riley,

Quote:
Originally Posted by RileyMartin View Post
I am a little concerned about not getting enough rest/recuperation between workouts. I read a lot of the stickies and how important it is to get enough rest and to 'stimulate' the muscles and not 'annhilate' them. I've only been doing this for 6 months now and lost when I read conflicting points of view.
have you read the stickies? have you read about the difference between over reaching and over training??? i don't think so. please do so immediately.

now, ill try my best to address this concern of yours. you dont need a week's rest for any muscle unless you do something extreme like 100 sets of 100 reps lol. this program has varying volume which you will change as you go along. there is no need to worry about "resting" your muscles. bulgarian lifters workout 6x a week and they do just fine. there is a guy who i know who's doing an internship with westside (on IA's site) and he works out 4x a week plus does extra workouts on off days and also on on days.

also, i do not believe you have read the stickies because no sticky says that working out at 1x a week frequency per muscle group is good. infact, all the stickies say otherwise. more quality frequency = better results.

Quote:
My max lifts are as follows:

Squat - 350lbs - 4 sets of 4 reps. I haven't tried a one rep max.
Deadlift - 365lbs. - one rep max. I tried 400lbs. but couldn't even budge it. I know I could do 375lbs, maybe 385lbs.
Bench - 275lbs. I think I could do 285lbs., maybe 295lbs.
impressive. great work. make sure you squat deep and below parallel...

Quote:
Are facepulls another term for doing pulldows to your chest with a lat bar?

Quote:
I'm still not sure what front planks are. What type of bench/machine would I need to do them?

Quote:
Withe the front plate squats, do I literally 'hug' a 45lb. plate and squat or do I squat with the bar on the front of my shoulders?

go to the 55 second mark on that video. don't watch him do overhead squats....front squats come in at 55-60 seconds. watch how he does them.

Quote:
Thanks again for your help. I'm really putting in a big effort with lifting and want to make sure I go about it the right way.
good luck
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Old 06-14-2008, 07:46 AM   #20
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If it is such 'rubbish', why did it take a while for for it to be commented on? Notice that I typed "probably not a good idea", not "definitely a good indication" If it is such 'rubbish', I learned it from a certified trainer, a bodybuilder who competes, another BBer who should compete, and several other people with significant experience in the fitness community. If I am erroneous in my posting, I understand, but please try to teach, not insult. We are here to learn. I'd hate to see this forum turn into some of the garbage holes I've seen elsewhere on the net.
-John

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