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Training discussion on Beginner question, within the Bodybuilding Forum; Originally Posted by john917v If it is such 'rubbish', why did it take a while for for it to be ...


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Old 06-14-2008, 09:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by john917v View Post
If it is such 'rubbish', why did it take a while for for it to be commented on? Notice that I typed "probably not a good idea", not "definitely a good indication" If it is such 'rubbish', I learned it from a certified trainer, a bodybuilder who competes, another BBer who should compete, and several other people with significant experience in the fitness community. If I am erroneous in my posting, I understand, but please try to teach, not insult. We are here to learn. I'd hate to see this forum turn into some of the garbage holes I've seen elsewhere on the net.
-John
john,

1.) you posted something which was INCORRECT. if you need proof that muscle soreness is not an indication of an effective workout...please go find the medical articles yourself. there are many that exist. of if you want to find the easy way: go read the stickies.

2.) this site is a good site with ton's of knowledgeable people. it is when guys like you walk into a thread and dont bother to read what everyone else has written and put your own solution forward that unpleasantness occurs. if you really do like this site as much as you claim to, atleast respect everyone else by reading the whole thread before putting in your 2c.

3.) there is nothing to "teach" here. you said that muscle soreness is an indicator of a good workout. it isnt. its that simple.

4.) most bodybuilders have insanely good genetics and the dedication that is inspiring. most of us commmon folk don't have such attributes regarding this sport therefore we have to work around these issues. this is ofcourse assuming that the bb'er you know are good because of their knowledge rather than inspite of their lack of knowledge.

have a good day

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Old 06-14-2008, 09:50 AM   #22
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I'm not sure what was being said about soreness. Whether John meant that frequent soreness was a sign of overtraining or that it was an indicator of a good workout. I took it as the former.

In terms of training soreness is more an indicator of novelity than a good workout. It goes away as you go along unless you introduce something new whether a new exercise variation or a significantly increased training stimulus. If the latter is true than you are looking at a person who is not using a planned attack and progressive overload and thus a person who is not going to have a consistent stimulus due to lack of training effect or lack of recovery, consistent frequency...the list goes on an on.

I just learned the phrase "locus of control". It occurs to me that this is completely apt to the question of soreness. If you are focused on external control then soreness is an "external" manifestation of what is right or wrong. If you are internal focused then you are in control of your choices. While you never want to completely discount either way....with training you have to be mostly internal, imo, with just a smattering of external influence for guidance.

Since soreness indicates the novelity of a stimulus than obvioulsy it can be an indicator of a positive change. Of course it could also be a negative change. You need more than soreness to know...you need knowledge of programming and effective, healthy, balanced exercise choice. If I change my ROM on, say, bulgarian squats...maybe increase my stride....I can get sore compared to last time. But that does not indicate whether I have increased my ROM in a 'good' way or whether I have worked into a vulnerable and unhealthy range in terms of strength/flexibility. Soreness in itself certainly cannot tell me this. I have to know what I'm doing.

But if you are sore all the time no matter what that is ONE possible symptom of overtraining or at least over-reaching....among a host of other symptoms.

Last edited by EricT; 06-14-2008 at 10:29 AM..

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:58 AM   #23
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Probably could've used some tact in the response. Quoting someone's response saying it's rubbish will only lead us down one path. I'm sure John must've felt validated in his post seeing as so many people have told him that. And to be honest, I thought he was talking about overtraining, not an effective workout indicator. Now, if you took all that time from asking him to come up with finding medical articles himself to briefly explaining why he's wrong, then I'm sure he'd learn something out of this forum other than to keep his advice to himself.

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Old 06-14-2008, 10:19 AM   #24
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if you took all that time from asking him to come up with finding medical articles himself to briefly explaining why he's wrong, then I'm sure he'd learn something out of this forum other than to keep his advice to himself.
i apologize for being brash. i'm sorry. i misunderstood this statement:

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I'm not sure if this goes for all muscles, but for biceps, if they bruise easily, that is a sign that you overdid it. And, if you are sore after every workout, it's probably a good indication.
well, in any case, sorry for being a brash asshole, john.
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:37 AM   #25
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True, Eric and DH got it. I have read quite a bit, on BB.net, and a ton of fitness magazines, books, medical journals, I've spoken to sports-med. practitioners. I'm not saying that I'm some hotshot know-everything. I don't doubt the knowledge of the other members here, either. However, I do appreciate your adult response. I never mentioned anything about a 'good workout' in my posts to this thread, but I did mention overdoing it. The OP stated how do I know if I am overtraining. I stated "...is a good indication" in response. It is good to see that things are being resolved in a mature manner.
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:37 AM   #26
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BTW, on lower one I'd recommend a single leg movement in place of the squats. Static split squats, static split squats with either leg elevated, reverse lunges, reverses lunges with either leg elevated, dynamic lunges, walking lunges, bulgarian squats (back leg elevated), step ups....

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I can give your workout a try however I am a little concerned about not getting enough rest/recuperation between workouts. I read a lot of the stickies and how important it is to get enough rest and to 'stimulate' the muscles and not 'annhilate' them. I've only been doing this for 6 months now and lost when I read conflicting points of view.
There is nothing conflicting then. If anything the suggestion Wolf made is low frequency with LOTS of time for recovery. Normally you would do two lowers and two uppers per week.

I think I understand where you think the conflict arises. And I'm sure you've read a lot of stuff, besides the stickies, that represent extreme camps. What has happened is you've taken it to an extreme yourself.

You've taken the "enough rest" and made it "work a muscle once a week". You've taken "stimulate not annihilate" and made it "keep the volume very low". This is actually why I wish people wouldn't point every beginner to the stickies because beginners are not the intended audience sometimes. Instead of educating you they've made you paranoid!

The audience that the 'why aren't you growing' sticky is speaking to is doing nothing like what you've been doing. It is meant for people who already have been doing the wrong thing for a while. Since you haven't had that experience you have simply based it on the wrong parameters. You misunderstood the advice in it therefore.

Prob in this case it would be best to "forget" about all that and just take some of the advice that's been given and work at it for a while.

Last edited by EricT; 06-14-2008 at 11:12 AM..
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Old 06-14-2008, 10:45 AM   #27
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Reverse lunges, sounds interesting.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:18 PM   #28
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Wolf, I just read your last response (#24). If I'd of read it earlier, I'd of responded sooner. You weren't an a**hole, or anything like that. Trust me, I've been told a lot worse in different forums for much simpler things. I appreciate your apology. For the record, there are no hard feelings, bud.
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:03 AM   #29
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Wolf made some good suggestions as far as a routine goes. You could argue that some things could be switched around to other days, but I'd say it is a very good transition compared to your initial routine. No routine is set in stone and a good routine will evolve and change as you do, so as you move along you may find that you need to do something else or switch something etc.

I agree with Eric's advice, Hip dominant movements (like the one's he suggested) are very good after deadlifts.

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Old 06-17-2008, 04:11 PM   #30
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Thanks, you guys are awesome!

I started adding the new movements into my current routine and I'll see how it goes. I tried the incline dumbell bench presses and boy what a difference. I can really feel how differently they work the muscles. I feel it more in the triceps and the shoulders.

I don't have a machine for doing the face pulls. Would a lat bar pulldown machine work if I leaned back and pulled the bar towards my face instead of my chest/shoulders?
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