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Beginner question
Hi all,
I've got a real basic question. I've been lifting for 6 months now and I've slowly increased the weight so as not to injure myself since I've been pretty sedentary for the past 10 years. I thought it best to take it real slow. I'm down to sets of 4 reps now on most lifts and I'm really pushing myself now to make gains in strength and see what my max lifts are. So my question is how do I know if I'm 'over training' or if I'm doing a good job and just training really hard? Thanks. Riley |
It would help if you put up your routine
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Thank you for the help. Here is my current routine.
Sunday ------- Bench Press - 3 or 4 sets of 4 reps Incline Bench Press - 3 sets of 4 reps Military Press - 3 sets of 4 reps Standing Dumbell Side Raises - 2 sets of 10 reps Tuesday -------- Squats - 3 or 4 sets of 4 reps Lying Leg Curls - 3 sets of 8 to 10 reps Standing One Leg Calf Raises - 2 sets of 12 reps Thursday --------- Deadlifts - 3 sets of 4 reps Bent Over Barbell Rows - 3 sets of 6 to 7 reps Lat Bar Pulldowns - 3 sets of 6 to 8 reps Barbell Curls - 3 sets of 6 reps Dumbell Curls - 1 set of 6 reps |
are you cranky all the time and have you stopped progressing?
that's usually how i get if i overtrain :) |
Well hopefully someone else will chime in, since I'm not the best at giving out advice.
What are your training goals? Are you going for size? strengh? or just overall fitness? |
I would like both. Lately with the low reps I've been training more for strength I guess. I want to see what my current max lifts are so I can then check again after a few months and see if I've made any progress.
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I'm not sure if this goes for all muscles, but for biceps, if they bruise easily, that is a sign that you overdid it. And, if you are sore after every workout, it's probably a good indication.
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The only time I have soreness is with my lower back after doing the deadlifts. I was doing squats and deadlifts in the same session but just moved the deadlifts from my leg day to the day when I do my back and biceps.
After my last set of deadlifts I have to bend down and pull the plates off the bar and my lower back is so warn out it's painful and just taking the plates off the bar feels like a set in of itself. I could use some sort of block or something to prop one side of the barbell up at a time so I could then just slide the plates off rather than them dragging on the floor as I yank them off. I wonder if they make that sort of thing. Then after the deadlifts I have to bend down to put the plates on the leg machine for the lying leg curls and my back is still so warn out that that's painful also. No other lifts give me any problems or any soreness. Just the deadlifts. I was doing three sets of 315lbs. for 4 reps and knew I could do more so then I went up to 3 sets of 325lbs. for 4 reps. I know I can do more so next week I'll try 335lbs. for 3 sets of 4 reps. In a few weeks I'll go for a one rep max. |
on your last rep...when you're all the way up...is there something you can get the bar on? so the weights are much higher...thus no bending over.
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^^Yeah, I put mine down on the squat rack (it has a rack at about mid-thigh height). Makes stripping the weights easy too. Is there anything like that?
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Your probably not overtaining in a systemic sense although your shoulders are probably taking a beating on day 1. If you are trying to improve strength then there is no reason to have all the pressing shoved together on one day. You should have some pressing and some rowing/pullups/pulldown on day one and then do the rest on day three...
Also there isn't any sense in doing flat bench for four rep sets followed by incline bench for 4 rep sets. Simply speaking you could probably lift a bit heavier and get some more volume on one of the lifts. Then go to a secondary for higher reps. Preferable a dumbell bench press, imo. I mentioned in your other thread about making sure your deadlift technique is correct. That's paramount. You back being smoked like that is most likely a function of endurance and core conditioning/activation. You back may be taking too much of the stabilization load and also lacking in stength endurance. Hip extensions (like back extensions except the back is set and you use the hips) for high reps plus statics can help with the endurance. Planks of all kinds. Front plate squats to get the abs in the game. Without knowing what your deads look like though it is difficult to advize. Could be some flexibility/strength imbalance that is simply transferring to load to the back improperly. Tight hip flexors, hamstrings and erectors and weak inactive glutes will do this. Improper form would exacerbate it. I've had the same problem before though and sense I knew that my technique was good and my glutes were active I took care of it with lots of core endurance work and the extensions I spoke of. Statics especially. Also a proper "classic" Romanian deadlift can help greatly on the endurance front. Basically you take a many pronged approach. This kind of thing I am speaking of is one of the proper uses of volume when building strength. For instance there are much better uses of volume than those lying leg curls in terms of contribution to your overall strength and moving the big lifts. |
Thanks for the help!
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Thanks again for the help. I'm really putting in a big effort with the lifting and I would hate to do be doing it wrong and getting nowhere fast. |
Overtraining is a result of not getting enough restitution between your training sessions, so if you feel on top of the world, and brimming with energy when you enter the gym, you're not overtrained. I'd say that with your routine, you'd have to work pretty damn hard to get overtrained, since you only train each muscle group once each week.
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soreness has zero indication of anything. please do not post such rubbish. this is a huge misconception and when you post something like this you are misleading the OP. |
in accordance with what Eric said, Riley, you should look into working out more frequently. By this I am no referring to more than 1x a week workouts but more in terms of muscles and lifts.
If you have read the stickies in this forum (especially the sticky "why you arent growing" then you will know that it is more advantageous for you to think in terms of lifts rather than muscles. in the same way, you routine below can be broken up into an upper-lower program which you rotate on a sunday/tuesday/thursday schedule. in other words, your workout will look like: Week 1 Sun - Lower 1 Tue - Upper 1 Thu - Lower 2 Week 2 Sun - Upper 2 Tue - Lower 1 Thu - Upper 1 Week 3 Sun - Lower 2 Tue - Upper 2 Thu - Lower 1 etc etc etc The four workouts which you have to do are: Lower 1 Deadlifts 2-3 sets x 3-5 reps Squats 2 sets x 5-10 reps Glute Ham Raises 3-4 sets Front Plate Squats 2-3 sets Upper 1 Flat Barbell Bench Press 3 sets x 5 reps Pull-ups 5 sets to failure Low Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 2-3 sets of 6-12 reps Hanging Leg Raises 2-3 sets Lower 2 Squats 3 sets x 5 reps Romanian Deadlifts 3 sets x 10-12 reps Leg Curls 2 sets x 10-12 reps Reverse Crunches 3 sets Upper 2 Military Press 3 sets x 5 reps Cable Rows 3-4 sets x 6-12 reps Facepulls 2-3 sets x 12-15 reps Front Planks 2-3 sets (timed) so have a look at the above routine and tell us what you think... i have left the loading parameters fairly open to you. you can choose how to progress. but you must roughly have a plan. for example, on lower 1 you have deadlifts for 2-3 sets of 3-5 reps now, if you start out doing 3 sets x 5 reps x 225 lbs, then you can play around with such a progression scheme Week 1 = 3 sets x 3 reps x 265 lbs Week 2 = 3 sets x 4 reps x 265 lbs Week 3 = 3 sets x 5 reps x 265 lbs etc etc you can progress by either increasing the weight, increasing the reps or increasing the number of sets. any of these is possible either on their own or you can do two of them at the same time. also, what are your current maxes on the big 3 lifts? Quote:
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Wow, thanks for putting in the time and providing all that info. I need all the help I can get.
My current routine has me working each body part once/week with the same exercises and getting a whole week of rest before repeating. The LOWER1, UPPER1, LOWER2, UPPER2 routine is very different from what I am doing now. I see it alternates working either upper body or lower body twice/week and alternates chest and shoulder exercises and different variations on back exercises. I can give your workout a try however I am a little concerned about not getting enough rest/recuperation between workouts. I read a lot of the stickies and how important it is to get enough rest and to 'stimulate' the muscles and not 'annhilate' them. I've only been doing this for 6 months now and lost when I read conflicting points of view. My max lifts are as follows: Squat - 350lbs - 4 sets of 4 reps. I haven't tried a one rep max. Deadlift - 365lbs. - one rep max. I tried 400lbs. but couldn't even budge it. I know I could do 375lbs, maybe 385lbs. Bench - 275lbs. I think I could do 285lbs., maybe 295lbs. Are facepulls another term for doing pulldows to your chest with a lat bar? I'm still not sure what front planks are. What type of bench/machine would I need to do them? Withe the front plate squats, do I literally 'hug' a 45lb. plate and squat or do I squat with the bar on the front of my shoulders? Thanks again for your help. I'm really putting in a big effort with lifting and want to make sure I go about it the right way. |
front plate squats...just hold the plate out in front of you....
and planks :) no machine needed. http://www.abs-exercise-advice.com/plank.html and your still only working out 3 days a week....so i would not worry about rest/recuperation with what wolf lined out...he would not steer you wrong :) |
I prefer compound exercises but your workout is not that bad. You might want to mix in some body exercises like pushups, pull ups and chin ups...
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Riley,
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now, ill try my best to address this concern of yours. you dont need a week's rest for any muscle unless you do something extreme like 100 sets of 100 reps lol. this program has varying volume which you will change as you go along. there is no need to worry about "resting" your muscles. bulgarian lifters workout 6x a week and they do just fine. there is a guy who i know who's doing an internship with westside (on IA's site) and he works out 4x a week plus does extra workouts on off days and also on on days. also, i do not believe you have read the stickies because no sticky says that working out at 1x a week frequency per muscle group is good. infact, all the stickies say otherwise. more quality frequency = better results. Quote:
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go to the 55 second mark on that video. don't watch him do overhead squats....front squats come in at 55-60 seconds. watch how he does them. Quote:
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If it is such 'rubbish', why did it take a while for for it to be commented on? Notice that I typed "probably not a good idea", not "definitely a good indication" If it is such 'rubbish', I learned it from a certified trainer, a bodybuilder who competes, another BBer who should compete, and several other people with significant experience in the fitness community. If I am erroneous in my posting, I understand, but please try to teach, not insult. We are here to learn. I'd hate to see this forum turn into some of the garbage holes I've seen elsewhere on the net.
-John |
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1.) you posted something which was INCORRECT. if you need proof that muscle soreness is not an indication of an effective workout...please go find the medical articles yourself. there are many that exist. of if you want to find the easy way: go read the stickies. 2.) this site is a good site with ton's of knowledgeable people. it is when guys like you walk into a thread and dont bother to read what everyone else has written and put your own solution forward that unpleasantness occurs. if you really do like this site as much as you claim to, atleast respect everyone else by reading the whole thread before putting in your 2c. 3.) there is nothing to "teach" here. you said that muscle soreness is an indicator of a good workout. it isnt. its that simple. 4.) most bodybuilders have insanely good genetics and the dedication that is inspiring. most of us commmon folk don't have such attributes regarding this sport therefore we have to work around these issues. this is ofcourse assuming that the bb'er you know are good because of their knowledge rather than inspite of their lack of knowledge. have a good day |
I'm not sure what was being said about soreness. Whether John meant that frequent soreness was a sign of overtraining or that it was an indicator of a good workout. I took it as the former.
In terms of training soreness is more an indicator of novelity than a good workout. It goes away as you go along unless you introduce something new whether a new exercise variation or a significantly increased training stimulus. If the latter is true than you are looking at a person who is not using a planned attack and progressive overload and thus a person who is not going to have a consistent stimulus due to lack of training effect or lack of recovery, consistent frequency...the list goes on an on. I just learned the phrase "locus of control". It occurs to me that this is completely apt to the question of soreness. If you are focused on external control then soreness is an "external" manifestation of what is right or wrong. If you are internal focused then you are in control of your choices. While you never want to completely discount either way....with training you have to be mostly internal, imo, with just a smattering of external influence for guidance. Since soreness indicates the novelity of a stimulus than obvioulsy it can be an indicator of a positive change. Of course it could also be a negative change. You need more than soreness to know...you need knowledge of programming and effective, healthy, balanced exercise choice. If I change my ROM on, say, bulgarian squats...maybe increase my stride....I can get sore compared to last time. But that does not indicate whether I have increased my ROM in a 'good' way or whether I have worked into a vulnerable and unhealthy range in terms of strength/flexibility. Soreness in itself certainly cannot tell me this. I have to know what I'm doing. But if you are sore all the time no matter what that is ONE possible symptom of overtraining or at least over-reaching....among a host of other symptoms. |
Probably could've used some tact in the response. Quoting someone's response saying it's rubbish will only lead us down one path. I'm sure John must've felt validated in his post seeing as so many people have told him that. And to be honest, I thought he was talking about overtraining, not an effective workout indicator. Now, if you took all that time from asking him to come up with finding medical articles himself to briefly explaining why he's wrong, then I'm sure he'd learn something out of this forum other than to keep his advice to himself.
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True, Eric and DH got it. I have read quite a bit, on BB.net, and a ton of fitness magazines, books, medical journals, I've spoken to sports-med. practitioners. I'm not saying that I'm some hotshot know-everything. I don't doubt the knowledge of the other members here, either. However, I do appreciate your adult response. I never mentioned anything about a 'good workout' in my posts to this thread, but I did mention overdoing it. The OP stated how do I know if I am overtraining. I stated "...is a good indication" in response. It is good to see that things are being resolved in a mature manner.
-John |
BTW, on lower one I'd recommend a single leg movement in place of the squats. Static split squats, static split squats with either leg elevated, reverse lunges, reverses lunges with either leg elevated, dynamic lunges, walking lunges, bulgarian squats (back leg elevated), step ups....
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I think I understand where you think the conflict arises. And I'm sure you've read a lot of stuff, besides the stickies, that represent extreme camps. What has happened is you've taken it to an extreme yourself. You've taken the "enough rest" and made it "work a muscle once a week". You've taken "stimulate not annihilate" and made it "keep the volume very low". This is actually why I wish people wouldn't point every beginner to the stickies because beginners are not the intended audience sometimes. Instead of educating you they've made you paranoid! The audience that the 'why aren't you growing' sticky is speaking to is doing nothing like what you've been doing. It is meant for people who already have been doing the wrong thing for a while. Since you haven't had that experience you have simply based it on the wrong parameters. You misunderstood the advice in it therefore. Prob in this case it would be best to "forget" about all that and just take some of the advice that's been given and work at it for a while. |
Reverse lunges, sounds interesting.
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Wolf, I just read your last response (#24). If I'd of read it earlier, I'd of responded sooner. You weren't an a**hole, or anything like that. Trust me, I've been told a lot worse in different forums for much simpler things. I appreciate your apology. For the record, there are no hard feelings, bud.
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Wolf made some good suggestions as far as a routine goes. You could argue that some things could be switched around to other days, but I'd say it is a very good transition compared to your initial routine. No routine is set in stone and a good routine will evolve and change as you do, so as you move along you may find that you need to do something else or switch something etc.
I agree with Eric's advice, Hip dominant movements (like the one's he suggested) are very good after deadlifts. |
Thanks, you guys are awesome!
I started adding the new movements into my current routine and I'll see how it goes. I tried the incline dumbell bench presses and boy what a difference. I can really feel how differently they work the muscles. I feel it more in the triceps and the shoulders. I don't have a machine for doing the face pulls. Would a lat bar pulldown machine work if I leaned back and pulled the bar towards my face instead of my chest/shoulders? |
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here's what you can do....find yourself a v-bar. then, attach it to the lat pull down machine. then, stand back, put one leg on the seat to support yourself and do the face pull while standing up. do a higher number of reps like 10-15 and use a lighter weight because the idea is not to move a lot of weight on this exercise...the goal is to do it with minimal body movement. the only thing which should be moving are your arms as they pull the v-bar towards your face. don't rock or bend your back. keep it at a fixed angle thoughout the set. good luck |
^^I prefer to use a rope rather than a V-Bar, but good advice nonetheless.
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^^^ oh yeah a rope works wonders too. i actually like a v-bar but every so often i do switch it up and use a rope. thanks for brining this up, kane....im gonna use the rope next time :)
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Then I'll be switching to the v-bar tomorrow. Haven't ever used that for face pulls before. :biglaugh:
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