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DFT 5x5

Training discussion on DFT 5x5, within the Bodybuilding Forum; I've done it. I've revised the spreadsheet I made in a few ways. For the 20% less squats, just input ...


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Old 08-22-2005, 11:43 PM   #41
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I've done it. I've revised the spreadsheet I made in a few ways. For the 20% less squats, just input what you do on Monday and it'll automatically calculate Wednesday. So here it is. Just change what you need to for what you're doing:

http://www.savefile.com/files/3910010

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Old 08-24-2005, 02:25 PM   #42
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As I mentioned in the other thread, I am leaning towards giving DFT a try for my next program. I will make the switch on Monday which will give me time to establish my 1 rep maxes over the weekend. Be on the lookout for my journal.

So heres a little background on what I have been doing and my experience with 5x5:
The current program I have been using is Needsize's 5x5 program and I have been doing it for roughly a year. I know you made a reference to his program 0311, so I just wanted to share my opinion that this program is an easy to learn 5x5 program and I have had good results with it like many others have had at EliteFitness. However, with that being said, even with moving down to sets of 3 as he suggests when you hit a plateau, I still haven't really been able to overcome my plateaus in a reasonable amount of time since I have been on the program so long. That is why I am looking for a change in my routine without completely moving away from 5x5 training.

Here are a few questions I have:

1) For the accessory exercises, are we basically limiting ourselves to one exercise or how ever many we want? With Needsize's I am use to doing multiple exercises for each muscle group in addition to the 5x5 focus. For example on tricep days would I just pick my favorite tricep exercise or a few different exercises? Same question for the ab workouts.

2) I know what my current 5x5 limits are because I am currently plateaud on most of my 5x5 exercises. When I am starting this program would you recommend cutting back on my 5x5 max weights to ease into the program or begin at my current 5x5 points?

I think I am answering my own question here because I know have stayed on this regular program so long that most of my 5x5 exercises have reached plateaus so I should probally kick it back some. But how much would you recommend?


I am sure I will have many more questions as I re-read through this thread a few times.
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Old 08-24-2005, 02:31 PM   #43
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BTW, there is so much info in this thread that I am going to make it a sticky for a while since it seems a couple of members have decided to give it a try (including me). Very nice compilation here 0311.
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Old 08-25-2005, 04:46 AM   #44
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Quote:
1) For the accessory exercises, are we basically limiting ourselves to one exercise or how ever many we want? With Needsize's I am use to doing multiple exercises for each muscle group in addition to the 5x5 focus. For example on tricep days would I just pick my favorite tricep exercise or a few different exercises? Same question for the ab workouts.
You could do whatever you want but I don't recommend it. Bill Starr was quoted saying that biceps and triceps exercises are nothing more than "beach work". It's recommended to do 2 or 3x8 at the end of your workout. I do: Monday-3x8 skullcrushers, Wed-3x8 barbell curls (one week), then incline dumbbell curls the next, Friday-3x8 weighted dips slightly leaning forward. Due to the frequency and heavy weight used, you don't necessarily need to, but I like to. My arms are blasted now out of their plateau by only doing the bear minimum of accessory work seen above. If you focus on explosive movements with all compounds (and especially rows) then your arms will grow like mine have. I also superset between accessory and abs because if not then you'll be in the gym forever.
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2) I know what my current 5x5 limits are because I am currently plateaud on most of my 5x5 exercises. When I am starting this program would you recommend cutting back on my 5x5 max weights to ease into the program or begin at my current 5x5 points?
No. When you find whatever your 1x5 and 5x5 maxes are for which exercises you are doing, then you plan backwards using the spreadsheet. I like 10 pound increments myself. Incline barbell for me. My max for 1x5 is 295 (without a spot). So that will be my goal for week 4. My first workout will be 265 for my 1x5. Now, regarding the pyramid, I like to keep all 5 sets close to my max set.
With this program, nothing is unknown. Before you begin, you will have your whole spreadsheet filled in. That's what I like. However, if you didn't guess the weights right and have trouble doing them in a certain week because you went heavier than you were supposed to, then factor in the same weight for next week and bump back the rest of the weights for that exercise on that spreadsheet. You have got to get all sets and reps.

Regarding breaking out of plateaus. This first run in the program will have you matching all your records for exercises regarding 1x5, 5x5. 3x3 will ramp up your strength nicely. So, after your intensity phase and deload, do whatever you want for a program for 2-3 weeks. I'm doing DFHT. Now, when you come back to doing this 5x5 volume phase again, you will increase every weight used in every week by a small percentage, biet 5 pounds, 10 pds, whatever. So your second run through will have you using heavier weights than you ever had before. Slow steady progress. Two or three cycles down the road and you'll be lifting weights heavier than you thought you could ever do.
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Old 08-25-2005, 10:04 AM   #45
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Default Dfst

There's also a strength training (dfht hybrid) called DFST: Dual Factor Strength Training. It's for people looking for more strength than mass. However, in doing this there will be a good amount of mass gain as well. Looking at it, I don't know which one looks more pleasing to the eye. This is also the brainstorm of Matt Reynolds.

OK, here is the program/split:

Upper Body Workout One:
1./// Barbell Bench Press: (flat or incline, normal grip – pinkies on rings, 5x5, 5rm, 3rm, or 1rm)
2./// Board Press/ Floor Press (1-5rm usually start where you left off on bench press)
3./// Dumbell Press (flat, incline, or decline for 3x8-10 same weight)
4./// Horizontal Lat Work (Barbell JS Rows, 5x5)
5./// Shoulders/ Traps (emphasis on medial delts - Shrugs, High Pulls, Dumbell Cleans, Lateral Raises, Shoulder Horn, Face Pulls – pick 1-2 exercises for 4-6 sets total)
6./// Tricep Extension (skull crushers, French presses, JM Presses, rolling dumbbell extensions, Tate Presses, pushdowns – pick one exercise for 3x10-12)
7./// Biceps (1-2 exercises, 3-5 sets total)

Lower Body Workout One:
1./// Snatches/Overhead Squats (snatches – 1rm or 3x3 @ 75%, then overhead squat to a heavy single)
2./// Max Effort Movement: Olympic Squats, Low Box Squats, Front Squats, Deadlifts, Deadlifts off a 2-3” box, mats, or 100lb plates) pick one exercise and work up to a 1 rep max.
3./// Goodmornings (3x5 same weight or work up to 5rm)
4./// Pullthroughs (3-5 sets of 10-12, some arched back, some rounded back)
-or-
4./// Glute Ham Raises (3-5 sets of 10-12)
5./// Weighted Hyperextensions (2-3x10-12)
6./// Weighted Abs/ Obliques (5x10 total – weighted situps, ab pulldowns on high cable or with bands, dumbbell side bends, etc.)

Upper Body Workout Two:
1./// Speed Bench: Flat Bench Press, 9 sets of 3 reps w/ approx 60% of raw max, (3 sets close grip, 3 sets regular grip, 3 sets wide grip) – eccentric and concentric should be as fast as possible – push bar as hard as you can all the way to lockout as if you were doing a max weight for every attempt. – addition of accommodating resistance can be used; i.e. chains or bands added to the bar.
2./// Close Grip Bench Press (pinkies 2” inside rings– heavy work 1rm, 3rm, or 5rm)
3./// Overhead Press (Standing military press or push press 1-5rm, or 3-5x5)
4./// Dips (2 sets)
5./// Vertical Lat Work (Lat Pulldowns or Pullups – 5+ sets – if on lat pulldown use different bars and work different planes)
6./// Tricep Extension (skull crushers, French presses, JM Presses, rolling dumbbell extensions, Tate Presses, pushdowns – pick one exercise for 3x10-12)
7./// Biceps (1-2 exercises, 3-5 sets total)


Lower Body Workout Two:
1./// Cleans (1rm or 3x3 @ 75%) – drop low to catch the weight and front squat it up
2./// Olympic Back Squats (Ultra deep – ATF - 5x5 w/ same weight, or occasionally work up to a 5rm, also use accommodating resistance approximately every other week)
3./// Speed Deadlifts (conventional deadlifts for 6 singles with 60% of max deadlift. Do a single, wait about 45 seconds or a minute and then do another single for 6 singles. Concentrate on speed and form.
4./// Pullthroughs (3-5 sets of 10-12, some arched back, some rounded back)
-or-
4./// Glute Ham Raises (3-5 sets of 10-12)
5./// Weighted Hyperextensions (2-3x10-12 )
6./// Weighted Abs/ Obliques (5x10 total – weighted situps, ab pulldowns on high cable or with bands, dumbbell side bends, etc.)
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Old 08-27-2005, 01:36 PM   #46
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Okay so I am filling out your spreadsheet now for my first week of this program and am a little confused. Here are a few questions that I really need to get ironed out:

1) This program says you are supposed to set your targets for week 4, so say that my max 5x5 bench is 275lbs. If I understand you right I am only targeting doing my 5x5 max on week 4 and I use the weeks leading up to it do slowly taper up to my max 5x5 weight?

2) If it is right that I set my target weights into week 4, then do I just set a gradual upward taper to my weights in the loading phase? So for example if my target is 275 for bench in week 4, in the three weeks leading up to that week I set targets like: 245, 255, 265, and then hit 275 on week 4?

3) Again if all the above is right, then on the completion of my first 4 weeks has me MATCHING my 5x5 max. Then I move onto the deload week where I perform the same weights in a 3x3 scheme for a week. Then its onwards to the intensity phase where I perform the same 3x3 weights but bump them like 5lb or 10 lbs each week?

Once again I am sure I will have more questions as I begin to fill this thing out more, so thanks in advance for helping me out.
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Old 08-27-2005, 02:23 PM   #47
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Quote:
1) This program says you are supposed to set your targets for week 4, so say that my max 5x5 bench is 275lbs. If I understand you right I am only targeting doing my 5x5 max on week 4 and I use the weeks leading up to it do slowly taper up to my max 5x5 weight?
Yes. You're target weight will be your max for week 4. I use increments of 10 pounds. This program has a higher frequency than Needsize's. So you'll need to ramp up in a few weeks to that max because you won't be used to it. You are hitting your chest twice a week, both 5x5. So this will ramp up your strength. Also, if you feel like you can go heavier that final week, do so. This loading phase has alot more volume than you're used to in a week. Madcow1's version has flat bench twice a week. That's another option for you if you want to further increase your bench. Once it's the same weight, the other is a pyramid using much heavier weight. I personally prefer the incline pyramid scheme.
Quote:
3) Again if all the above is right, then on the completion of my first 4 weeks has me MATCHING my 5x5 max. Then I move onto the deload week where I perform the same weights in a 3x3 scheme for a week. Then its onwards to the intensity phase where I perform the same 3x3 weights but bump them like 5lb or 10 lbs each week?
Deload is the exact same weight as your last week of volume. So you'll do 275 for 3x3. Since the volume and frequency is drastically cut, this week will effectively recover your body even though the weight stays heavy. Having the weight stay heavy ensures that your strength is maintained to prepare you for the ass kicking intensity phase. I'm seeing alot more visable gains during my deload.
Once you start your intensity phase, it's really up to you. Going from 5x5 (which is alot) to 3x3, you're weight increases should have a bigger jump from your week 4. For me, my max for 5x5 bench was 305 for all 5 sets of 5 without a spot. I'm starting my intensity phase with 320 for all 3x3. It's a judgement call. You're going from 25 reps to only 9 so the big jump won't kill you. If it does, keep the weight the same the following week and I guarantee you'll get them all. BUT, I'm only planning on 2 weeks of intensity. For what you're after, I recommend 3-4 weeks. So you're first intensity week weights used shouldn't have such an aggressive jump like I'm doing. Keep that in mind. The intensity phase is where you'll gain more strength to where you'll set new 5x5 records. During my next cycle (after DFHT for sure due to my success), I'll start over by increasing every weight used each week by 5-10 lbs. I know you said that you plateaud at 275x5. Next cycle you'll have gained at least 10 lbs on that lift if you did everything right....Maybe more.
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Old 08-29-2005, 06:31 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311
Yeah, I have. The best way that I see it fit is to do a layout like this:

-find 10 and 5 rep maxes (1 week)
-strategic deconditioning (8 days)
-HST-10 RM, (2 weeks)
-HST-5 RM, (2 weeks)
-5x5 DELOAD (use 3x3 layout)
-5x5 loading (4 weeks)
-5x5 deload (1 week)
-5x5 intensity (2 weeks)
-Deload (3x3)
Ok, in reviewing what I posted, I think there can be a few changes. This is what I've come up with:

-find 15, 10, and 5 RM's. (or 12, 8, 5) For the 5 RM, use only the 5x5 exercises.
-SD
-HST 15 or 10 RM's for 2 weeks
-HST 10 or 8 RM's for 2 weeks
-Jump straight into 5x5 volume phase
-continue on as planned.

I figure this way you'll est. your 5 RM on the relevant 5x5 exercises ahead of time. Use my spreadsheet to factor that into your LAST week of loading, then reverse plan backwards to week 1. I went against doing your 5 rep block of HST because it wouldn't make sense to hit your 5 RM, then deload, then start back with less weight than you're used to. With this plan, you will never go backwards in weight used or "zig-zag".
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Old 08-31-2005, 05:45 PM   #49
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Once you're done with the full cycle of 5x5, there are a few options to continue your progress. I'll use Madcow1's example as a visual aid:

Quote:
Mesocycle 1:....................................5x5 Loading
Mesocycle 2: Microcycle 1:.................5x5 Deload Week
Mesocycle 2: Microcycles 2-5:.............5x5 Intensity Weeks
Microcycle 1 (separate):.....................Deloading - 1 week
Mesocycle 3: Microcycles 1-3:.............DFHT Loading
Mesocycle 3: Micocycle 4:...................DFHT Deloading
Microcycle 2 (separate):.....................Specialty work - 2 weeks
Repeat
Option 1: After the intensity phase, deload, then do another volume phase all over again. The only way to do this successfully is to use the alternate deload week shown on page one. This means that instead of deloading 3 days in a week, you only workout 2 days such as Monday and Thursday. That will allow for maximum deload and complete rest before getting slammed with another loading phase. When mapping out your spreadsheet for the second time, all you have to do is bump all the weights used back by one week. So in essence, you elliminate your week 1 weights and start your loading at week 2. For week 4, you will factor in higher weights, which means 5-10 pounds for your new PR's. Same goes for the deload and intensity phases as well. I'm leaning towards bumping everything up 5 lbs each cycle so I won't hit a brick wall any time soon.

Option 2: After your deload from the intensity phase, you can jump into the DFHT training as per the spreadsheet downloaded. The main idea is the exact same as the 5x5: Progressive overload is key. Here's a quote from FI.com by Matt Reynolds regarding DFHT:
Quote:
No exercise should be taken to failure when using submaximal reps, however, all exercises should be taken to within one or two reps of failure by the final set of the exercise. If muscular failure is reached, there is no way you can train with an increased frequency without overtraining.
• Periodization will be individual to the lifter. However, for the sake of this program a 3-week period of loading followed by one week of recovery is given. (Additionally, if one isn't fully recovered after the one week recovery period, and fatigue still builds, increase the recovery period to two weeks, or have a "recovery month" every 4 or 5 months where you'll have one week of loading and three weeks of recovery during that month to allow your body to fully recover.)
Progressive Overload is absolutely imperative in every exercise, making sure that load or reps are increased, or that rest periods are decreased to keep intensity high (during loading phases). (Of course, during the recovery phases, if volume is lowered, and frequency reduced slightly, then intensity can and should still be kept high, although the load should be reduced just slightly (approx. 10%) as there is no reason to attempt to set records through progressive overload during this time of recovery.)
Option 3: After your deload from the intensity phase, you can jump into the Dual Factor Strength Training if you want to further ramp up your strength. Looking at the jump from the 3x3 intensity phase to the DFST, it's recommended using 1 week of loading, then 1 week of deloading to measure your tolerancy. This is what's recommended for the DFHT as well, esp. if it's foreign to you. After a successful 2 weeks, if you feel great, try for 2 weeks loading, 1 week deload, and go from there.

Specialty work is nothing more than addressing weak areas of your physique or reverting back to your favorite lifts after the full phase of dual factor training. I'm leaning towards doing an HST'esque 2 week block of 15's for the lactic acid and strength endurance before going heavy again. HST's reason behind the 15's is that lactic acid lubricates and repairs your joints for the heavier loads of the cycle. The 15's for me will be almost exclusively isolations for a change. This makes the most sense to me since all the previous weeks had me predominately in the 3-8 rep range with a few exercises in the 10's.

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Old 09-04-2005, 11:04 PM   #50
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MORE!!!

Here's another great article:
"Whole body compound workouts vs. one bodypart a day training"
by Kurt J. Wilkens, RKC.

Quote:
The whole article can be found here:
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/310/


I have come to the following conclusion, after considerable research and study of much of the available material regarding the training methods and results of the so-called ‘old timers’, as well as current training methods and results: the ‘split’ routine has been the death of productive strength training and muscle building. Allow me to explain the reasoning behind this possibly shocking revelation…


Benefits of Whole-Body Routines vs. Split Routines

First, the endocrine response. According to modern sports science, the more muscle mass one uses in a training session, the greater the endocrine response; in other words, the more hormones that your body will release in response to your training. The old-time programs trained all the muscle groups in each workout; that’s a lot of muscle mass. Consider the gush of hGH and testosterone that would be sent coursing through the body after a workout that included heavy squats, deadlifts, standing presses, bent-over and upright rows, bench presses, DB swings, snatches, etc. And consider the muscle-building and fat-burning effects of all this hGH and test free-flowing through your system. Now, try to imagine how very little the squirt of hormones would be after a shoulder workout of seated DB presses (at least standing you would be getting some leg work, however minimal), lateral raises to the front and sides, bent laterals, and maybe some cable laterals for a little extra striation-training. Or worse, a ‘heavy’ arm workout: preacher curls, incline DB curls, maybe 21s to get a good burn; then ‘skull crushers’, seated French presses, and some pushdowns for the outer head, man. Diddly in the way of muscle-building and fat-burning! The training effect upon the endocrine system may also explain why the trend in full-body routines went from as many as ten or more drills down to half that: The abbreviated routines allowed the lifter to finish the session within 45-60 minutes, which maximized hGH and testosterone while minimizing the catabolic hormone cortisol. The old-timers may not have fully understood why the shortened routines seemed so much more productive than the original two-plus-hour marathon workouts, but they knew what worked and they stuck with it!

Second, bone and joint strength. Again, modern sports science tells us that the bones in the body are strengthened best when subjected to a heavy load. This is where the big, multi-joint lifts come in, lifts like squats, deadlifts, cleans-and-jerks, snatches, standing presses, etc. It is quite impossible to put the skeletal frame under significant resistance when using so-called isolation exercises; as far as I’m concerned, these type drills are little more than ‘poor-leverage’ drills. Lateral raises, flyes, cable cross-overs, leg extensions, etc, all put the weight at the end of a relatively long lever, making it more difficult to lift that weight -- even a very light weight. And at no point in any of the isolation exercises does any real resistance actually fall fully on the bone structure; the skeletal system does little, if any, real supporting of the weight. The same applies to the connective tissues: To fully strengthen the tendons and ligaments, it is necessary to subject them to tremendously heavy weights, often through a partial range-of-motion. Again, this is not something that is adequately accomplished with the isolation-type, poor-leverage drills. Clearly, split routines and the accompanying isolation drills are not the most efficient way to build strength in the bones and connective tissues.

The talk of strength leads us to the next point: muscular strength. Maximum muscular strength is best developed via the lifting of very heavy weights. The heavier the weight, the greater the tension generated in a muscle, and the more tension generated by a muscle, the more force it can apply -- thus, it gets stronger! And while isolation drills -- aka, poor-leverage drills -- may generate what appears to be a lot of tension (even with very light weights), it is typically far less than would be required with whole-body exercises. The goal of strength training, after all, is -- or should be -- to lift the heaviest weight possible. Think of it this way: Would you have more confidence and more pride from doing a set of ten reps in the lateral raise with 25 pounds, or five reps in the clean-and-press with 205? Which drill do you really think would do more for your bodily size and strength? The answer, I hope, is obvious.

Finally, we come to the issue of functionality. The isolation exercises that are the staple of most split routines are not functional in the least (beyond, perhaps, for training around an injury, or for rehab). When was the last time you needed to put something heavy on a shelf above your head and you chose to lift it at the end of your stiff, outstretched arm? Hopefully never. You would, I have to believe, do something that would resemble a continental clean and press -- deadlifting the load to waist height, struggling it up to the shoulders, and finally pressing it up overhead and sliding it onto the shelf. Whole-body routines using the big, multi-joint drills train the whole body as a unit -- as the name might imply. They teach your many muscle groups to work together in a unified, athletic fashion, and in the proper sequence: typically from the ground up, transferring force from the lower body, through the midsection, into the upper body, and out through the arms (more often than not, anyway). These drills also teach the muscles of the legs and core to stabilize the upper body against resistance, which is especially important not only in lifting but in many combative/contact sports.

There’s a popular saying, something to the effect that “Form Follows Function”. How you train will determine how you look, that’s true enough; but it will also determine how you perform. Training for functionality will dramatically improve your performance, first and foremost, and your ‘form’ right along with it. Cosmetic-oriented training -- bodybuilding -- may improve how you look, but it will not, I submit, do much to improve your performance in any endeavor. Besides, what will be more valuable to you in your life: looking puffed-up and pretty, or having high levels of strength and work capacity? Train like an athlete, not a bodybuilder! To train any other way is to invite injury and weakness.


In Conclusion…

If you are a young guy -- or even a not-so-young guy -- whose sole desire is to get bigger and stronger, drug-free, I beg of you: Do not fall for the popular hype that you’ll find in nearly every one of the muscle and fitness magazines and Internet websites today! Reference the materials cited above (MILO, Brawn, Dinosaur Training, PTP, etc.). With any or all of these books and magazines to guide you, you can’t go far wrong with your training. Please, don’t waste your time trying to prove that you are an exception, that your genetics are ‘good’ -- chances are they’re not. Do yourself a BIG favor and stick with what works, what’s been working for over 100 years -- hard and heavy training on full-body routines using the big lifts. The results may amaze you!


Kurt J. Wilkens is the founder of Integrated Conditioning, Inc., a South Florida-based personal training company that emphasizes Functionality and Wellness over simple ‘fitness’. Integrated Conditioning specializes in combining Old-School Physical Culture with Modern Sports Science to develop the most effective programs possible for any individual’s specific case. Training is available to you online, or in the convenience of your own home. Kurt is an ISSA-Certified Fitness Trainer, an ISSA-Specialist in Martial Arts Conditioning, and a Certified Russian Kettlebell Challenge Instructor. He can be reached via his website: www.IntegratedConditioning.com.
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