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Just remember to keep an open mind about things regarding training, dieting, etc. There appears to be a lot of knowledgeable people around here so just be open to suggestions. Glad to see that you've been doing some reading. I've been doing this for 10+years and always learning more.

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oh, then welcome to the forum sir...

In any program?

Direct arm work in "Waterbury Method" article:
Skull Crushers
Triceps Pressdown
Standing Barbell Curls
Standing Hammer Curls

"Hybrid Hypertrophy": Triceps work

"Art of Waterbury":
Triceps Pressdowns or French Presses
Standing Hammer Curls
Skull Crushers or Lying DB Triceps Extensions

"Total Body Training": Allows 2 sets of "assistance exercises"

This per the schedules as Waterbury designed them. Obviously you could study the parameters and take these out, but there seems usually to be a "method" to his madness so it is probably better to do the programs as he outlines.

This is the danger of taking comments out of context. Waterbury said that everyone knows who has been around the gym for a while that the best arm growth is achieved though heavy compound pulling and pushing exercises (paraphrase).

He didn't include any direct arm work in "Anti Bodybuilding" for instance. The program was designed without it. And yet not all his programs are without direct arm work. Seems it depends on other variables.

You'd have to ask him why this is. I didn't read all of his articles. I'm sure he includes triceps work to increase strength on pressing. Perhaps he likes biceps work sometimes to increase strength on pulling.

Whether he includes them or not seems to be dependant on the specific program.

I agree that direct arm work leads to bigger arms in a properly designed program of heavy pressing and pulling.

But, and this is just an example, biceps strength is a LIMITING factor in pulling exercises. No matter what you do you can't do a pull-up or a pull-down without bending your arms. If you're like me, you can't bend your arms without your biceps. Period. Any trick in the book is not gonna eliminate the fact that getting a full contraction in the lats during pulling is dependant on the strength of the relatively smaller and weaker biceps.

This just may be why Waterbury sometimes includes direct arm work depending on how advanced the routine is.

It is possible for some that while their arms are getting bigger doing heavy pushing and pulling their chest and back, for example, are suffering.

I do agree, however, with the general statement about arm growth being made here. I just believe there is a time and a place for everything which depends of the individual and the program itself.

Food for thought.

For a biceps workout to truely isolate the movement of this muscle group, you MUST isolate the upper arm to reduce collateral assistance from other muscle groups.

Therefore, the hammer curls work, but the standard barbell curl does not.

I suggest you try another movement - the biceps drag curl.

Done correctly, you will feel the effect of isolation, and should try alternating sets of suppinated and pronated grips.

My guys use this exercise, alternating it with triceps exercises twice per week.

More than twenty gymrats now employ this movement in their workouts (which vary from traditional splits to 3 day whole body / HST / and GVT variations).

In our approach, the triceps, the dominant muscle group, gets the most attention - but, the we are careful to fully isolate the biceps to help stimulate development of strength and mass.

nice post trouble...

as for Eric3237, ya.. i made a mistake... what i was trying to say is that like how he mentioned in his ABBH routine that there is no need to do direct arm workout ALWAYS, i have grown to understand this funda...

but, i do do arm work 1ce a week..

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great discussion so far, but I have to disagree somewhat on all accounts. I've run the gammit, going from multiple bi/tri isolations, to using nothing but compound movements. increased, and decreased intensity, reps, sets ect ect.

and while my strength has grown over time, my arms simply never have. in 8 or so years of training, i've gained 1/2 inch on my arms total. when comparing that to others of similar ht, wt, strength, i am below average at best.


so what do u suggest for the guy who has tried everything?

well my plan is to hit another modified hst cycle in jan, and see if i can grow a little more. But i'm open to suggestions.

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may b you should try this routine

Full Body Workouts
day 1 = maximum strength
day 2 = endurance
day 3 = cardio
day 4 = hypertrophy
day 5 = speed strength
day 6 = volume (10x3 of Chad Waterbury's Next Big Three"
day 7 = rest / cardio
day 8 = repeat

i don know: it worked well for me + u said you have tried everything, so give this a shot...

for specifics: pm me and i'll send you the routine

Over those 8 years or so of training, how has your body composition changed? Perhaps you've gained muscle on your arms while decreasing fat mass.
Also, it's going to be rather difficult to add size on a "never ending cutter" .
How are you modifying your HST routine?

RoryL, you come across to me as a very intense kinda guy... are you...?

u know - sum 1 who thinks a LOT before saying something...

Thats a good point that i havent thought of rory. I didnt start out with the slimest frame . And I seem to forget what I looked like when i was 240lbs, and unable to run a mile, or even bench my own bodywieght for that matter.

As for adding mass durring a cutter, I was more asking for ideas for the future, so when my fat ass is skinny, i can grow more easily.

I havent planned out my next HSt routine yet, but i intened to only do one week of 15's, 3 weeks of 10's, then 3 weeks of 5's. I'm going to go with mostly compound movements, and negate any ph/ps use. the week between christmas and new years will be my deconditioning week.

Thanks for the outline anuj, but i think i'm gonna stick to what i was originally going to do with the hst.