Full Body Workouts madness or sanity
 

Full Body Workouts
Man that sounds like some kind of Ellington Darden 1980s Nuatilus madness. I cant imagine anyone but newbees growing off this stuff. By the time you would finish your squats you would be huffing and puffing so bad that eveything else afterwords would suffer.
I think maybe cutting it into push and pull would make more sense.
Please tell me how anyone but a newbe could get mass on a full body workout?

All that you need to find that out is already on this forum. Since you will never bother to read any of it why should we bother? We have been down this road and discussed this again and again on this forum.

You don't want anyone to answer you question because you've made up your mind what you "believe".

Here, please go here: www.hypertrophy-specific.com

And currently, Boris Kleine, German bodybuilding pro uses HST as well as countless others with unbelievable success. And yes, Boris does a LOT more weight than you..Everything three times a week.

Now, I know this is bullshit because NO "trainer" would NOT know all about how to induce hypertrophy!! :gay:

http://www.prosource.net/images/layo...oriskleine.jpg

Here's Boris: 3 times a week fullbody, lots more weight than you, and he doesn't use machines and the smith.

I'm guessing you're from bb.com?

You aren't a trainer if you don't know what induces hypertrophy. Pure and simple. I know this is bullshit for the simple fact that you NEED to tell everyone your e-numbers to start off every post!..Then when someone disagrees, your rebuttle is that they must be newbs! LOL!!

It's called a complex when someone NEWLY joins an bodybuilding forum and starts writing essays about "feeling" or "I'm not going to grow unless I'm sore". If you really must post your whole list of e-numbers so everyone will at least click on your thread, just write all your lifts in your sig..Just don't take up the whole page! :)

Yup, cut and paste..However, either I write it and take the time, or I'll just paste it for you. It's quite simple. All I need you to do is look at the area in yellow and simply follow through with anymore hypertrophy questions you have...

Hypertrophy Principle's all layed out for Sleeper. :)

1) Mechanical Load
Mechanical Load is necessary to induce muscle hypertrophy. This mechanism involves but isn't limited to, MAPk/ERK, satellite cells, growth factors, calcium, and number of other fairly understood factors. It is incorrect to say "we don't know how muscle grows in response to training". The whole point of the HST book is not to discuss HST, but to present the body of research explaining how hypertrophy occurs. Then HST becomes a relatively obvious conclusion if your goal is hypertrophy.

2) Acute vs. Chronic Stimuli
In order for the loading to result in significant hypertrophy, the stimulus must be applied with sufficient frequency to create a new "environment", as opposed to seemingly random and acute assaults on the mechanical integrity of the tissue. The downside of taking a week of rest every time you load a muscle is that many of the acute responses to training like increased protein synthesis, prostaglandins, IGF-1 levels, and mRNA levels all return to normal in about 36 hours. So, you spend 2 days growing and half a week in a semi-anticatabolic state returning to normal (some people call this recovery), when research shows us that recovery can take place unabated even if a the muscle is loaded again in 48 hours. So true anabolism from loading only lasts 2 days at best once the load is removed. The rest of the time you are simply balancing nitrogen retention without adding to it.

3) Progressive Load
Over time, the tissue adapts and becomes resistant to the damaging effects of mechanical load. This adaptation (resistance to the stimulus) can happen in as little as 48 hours (Repeated Bout Effect or Rapid Training Effect). As this happens, hypertrophy will stop, though neural and metabolic adaptations can and may continue. As opposed to hypertrophy, the foundation for the development of strength is neuromuscular in nature. Increases in strength from resistance exercise have been attributed to several neural adaptations including altered recruitment patterns, rate coding, motor unit synchronization, reflex potentiation, prime mover antagonist activity, and prime mover agonist activity. So, aside from incremental changes in the number of contractile filaments (hypertrophy), voluntary force production (i.e. strength) is largely a matter of "activating" motor units.

4) Strategic Deconditioning
At this point, it is necessary to either increase the load (Progressive load), or decrease the degree of conditioning to the load (Strategic Deconditioning). The muscle is sensitive not only to the absolute load, but also to the change in load (up or down). Therefore, you can get a hypertrophic effect from increasing the load from a previous load, even if the absolute load is not maximum, assuming conditioning (resistance to exercise induced micro-damage) is not to extensive. There is a limit to the number of increments you can add to increase the load. You simply reach your maximum voluntary strength eventually. This is why Strategic Deconditioning is required for continued growth once growth has stopped (all things remaining equal).

Here you go in case you missed it..

The Death of Bodybuilding

:owned2:

YES ! I MEAN I DON'T DO THINGS ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN BELIEFS, THEREFORE IM A NOOOOOOOOOOOOB !!!!!!!

Just stop posting here. Narrowminded people aren't welcome. Being argumentive and sharing views is one thing, but you demoralize anyone who doesn't immediatley agree with you. GO AWAY.

Good job guys. I got a little bored with this last night I must admit. Thanks for fighting the good fight.

I'm doing HST right now and the results are starting to show up rapidly...therefore I am Noob.

-Kane the Newb

Kane you steroid laden newb you must be soooo sore.

Don't you know you'd do better with seemingly random and acute assaults on the mechanical integrity of the tissue? GAWD!

A little more background.


What is Muscular Hypertrophy?
Muscular hypertrophy is an increase in muscle mass and cross-sectional area (1). The increase in dimension is due to an increase in the size (not length) of individual muscle fibers. Both cardiac (heart) and skeletal muscle adapt to regular, increasing work loads that exceed the preexisting capacity of the muscle fiber. With cardiac muscle, the heart becomes more effective at squeezing blood out of its chambers, whereas skeletal muscle becomes more efficient at transmitting forces through tendonous attachments to bones (1).
Skeletal muscle has two basic functions: to contract to cause body movement and to provide stability for body posture. Each skeletal muscle must be able to contract with different levels of tension to perform these functions. Progressive overload is a means of applying varying and intermittent levels of stress to skeletal muscle, making it adapt by generating comparable amounts of tension. The muscle is able to adapt by increasing the size and amount of contractile proteins, which comprise the myofibrils within each muscle fiber, leading to an increase in the size of the individual muscle fibers and their consequent force production (1).

Wouldn't want any one to think it had something to do with SCAR TISSUE.

yes, I am among the sorest of Newbs and I pray for the day when I become a non-newb with real results.

I bet my gym has those fun house mirrors installed...that would explain why I looked so jacked, and why I look like I shrunk about 2 feet :lame:

LOL.:biggthumpup:

Man, the one thread I don't read ends up being pretty funny...
Yeah, I've done 5x5 and DFHT(upper/lower) and I got better results from 5x5.

I'm taking credit for the madness since I think this is what motivated the thread:

Looking at Boris seems I'm in good company.

Just to be thorough Dave, you're referring to the 5x5 that has THREE FULL BODY workouts a week..:biglaugh: Not the one that rides the supercompensation wave (like Sleeper likes):arg:

Thanks for the look out. :biglaugh:

I just take it for granted that when I say 5x5 it is always 3 full body workouts. Like it suppose to be.:bodybuilder

this shit is too funny.

FYI, Sleeper, since your favorite "old timer" is Dave Draper here are some of his favorite routines listed on his site:

Entire Body Workout

2-day Full Body Workout

Full-Body Strength Program

Now, admittedly, Dave's all-time favorite is a high volume split. A fairly ludicrous one if you ask me. But, dare I say it?....He hit's everything twice in seven days! And that with an arm day from hell.

fuck....i've been gone 2 days and there's a war thats on...? :eek:

Anuj

btw: sleeper: u got owned...no surprise too

Personally I find it all very stimulating :weights:

Getting a bit technical, I was rereading some old posts over at the HST board and came across another one of Boris Kleine's HST full body routines that he uses..Back then anyways..

Again, his pics are on page one, and certainly isn't a newb :D

Since I'm sure Sleeper and a lot of other medieval trainers are not signing in, yet absorbing all this knowledge, I'd like to post a thread from meso-rx that deals with oldtimer's always advocating 5-6 day splits for mass:

Good Read

Good thread. Went pretty much like I expected.

I liked the third post..

"That is absolutely, hands down, without a doubt wrong."

He should have bolded and increased the font on "wrong" to better drive the point home. :p

Here ya go, Dave,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starkraven they changed because they realized you grow more with less training frequency.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Smith That is absolutely, hands down, without a doubt wrong.

AAHhhhhhhh... There it is. Now I feel better.:)

That "Good Read" link didn't work for me... :(

It doesn't work for me anymore either.

Hmmm, the link's fine..I just think the site is down for maintenence or something because I cannot even get on the site itself.

EDIT - Just as I thought. There's a thread just started about this. Click Here

This thread is a true classic of bb.net, and deserves a very big :bump:

Here's some MORE (if you can believe it!) from bulknutrition.com. It starts off with the preconcieved notion that ALL the pro's use a 5 day split, so everyone should.. I end up proving that two of his examples of Pro's (Arnold, Coleman) don't use a 5 day split, but rather hit muscles 2-3 times a week.. Which is exactly what this thread I'm bumping is about..

You'll notice attitudes change on page 2 with all the proof being reveiled. And to my knowledge, I still don't know where a 5-6 day split was invented excluding Metzner?? In my opinion, people THOUGHT that those pro's use a 5 day split because of all the volume they watch them do in a single session for ONE bodypart. What they DON'T know is that those pro's do 6 days a week in the gym on a three day split OR go both morning and night (am/pm) hitting bodyparts FREQUENTLY... Just with a ton of volume as you'll see on page one..

Enjoy: Full Body Vs. Split

LOL, can't believe that guy called you an asshole you asshole :biglaugh:

I kept my cool because he does that to everybody. :D You have to accept that on the bodybuilding forums, when you go against the grain, challenging what people percieve to be FACT, that those things and jabs like that happen.. In the interest of keeping the thread as informative as possible, I didn't reciprocate.. :)

When you have such a touchy thread as that, with that title, you know right off the bat that if you post in the thread, you're walking into a literal minefield... And you know what always happens to the messenger who marches into town with a new version of the truth! I'll give you a hint!

http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~sam/wight.jpg

Well you know what happened when people killed Genghis Khan's amabassadors...

Good work 0311 :biglaugh:

I used to think that the 4-6 day split was the shit, but I'm honestly a big fan of the Upper/Lower (DFHT) and the 3 Day FB (DF 5x5) surprisingly enough lol. It's where I've seen most of my strength/mass gains!

Either way gains are possible.As long as the muscles are being forced to adapt I don't see a problem with either. I personnaly like the fullbody workout, sometimes I turn it into a circuit for a cardio work out as well. But I've also know some guys who work a 5 day split and look fantastic.

I think I will incorperate a push/pull split but I really want to set aside a day for just core work as well.

Of course there's gains either way. The main idea of the post was about which is more OPTIMAL. Optimal meaning doing less to achieve more. This is especially true with natural lifters. Damn, I just realized that NONE of the good stuff is posted in this thread, so I'll post everything individually down bottom....

* The rest of this post isn't directed towards you Ozzi.. Just an open rant to add to the massive amount of info in the thread.... :)

If I asked a hundred people why they do a split, they'll say they either saw it in a magazine or state that all the pro's do it. (which is false) But, if you go back to the first half of the century when all they were was natural lifters, you'll see every one of them doing full body routines. Splits and isolationism only reared its head in the 70's and 80's when steroids entered the picture. And to add to that, when most people were watching guys like Coleman witnessing the gigantic amount of volume for a muscle in a session (such as back), they thought he must only do one muscle per day... Which is wrong. He uses a 3 day split, 6 days a week thereby working muscles twice a week (not once). Dorian Yates and Mike Metzner are two that use extremely low volume and a lot of days between muscles. I gotta include here that Yates was THE most injured lifter as well.

Additionally, depending on how people constructed their "split", they could create a great overlap of muscles worked. One such example is doing close or reversegrip bench on "arms" day, which is also great for pec development. Or even doing a few sets of heavy weighted underhanded chins for "back" day which is also excellent for biceps.

The problem with only working out a muscle once a week is two fold:

1. Doing one muscle in a day usually means you hit it with a variety of angles, all of which isn't necessary or optimal.. But does it work? Sure it does. Refer back to all the long winded posts that talk about how you CANNOT isolate your muscles in sections. (such as incline flyes allegedly working your "upper-inner chest" which is simple minded.) Supporters would speculate that they "felt" it and are sore in the "upper-inner" pecs, but the muscle works as a WHOLE, not in seperate, mapped out sections. If that was the case, then I'll go ahead and tatoo borders on my chest and be sure to color in each little piece to be sure I got it all.. :weights:

Additionally with this point. As your "chest day" for example progresses, the weights drop significantly. By the end of the hour, you're doing 40 lb cable flyes. In my opinion, the second half of that workout using 'pussy weights' isn't going to build the muscle the initial (and heaviest) exercises will. So why bother? My point (and the point of many others) is to do your heavy exercises for chest, then move the fuck on.. The only once a week program that circumvents this is Max-OT, which is a very low volume, heavy weighted routine.

2. The growth response from a bout of heavy lifting lasts up to 36 hours. This means you're basically growing for 3 days, then maintaining your gains for another 4 days. Again, what does this mean? It means that YES, you grow from once a week, but NO it's not anywhere close to optimal unless you can EXTEND those growth factors such as increased protein synthesis, IGF-1, through "chemical enhancement" a la steriods or some more accessable brands such as Superdrol and Phera-plex to name a few..

I think everyone here has grown from doing the basic 5 day split. But, if I compare doing 15-20 sets per day once a week to what I'm doing now, the word optimal once again comes to mind. To be honest, when I'd do a muscle on Monday (example chest), I'd feel good to go by Thursday, sometimes Friday the lastest.

----

Now, it's been a few years since I've been a member here, and I've STILL never got an answer to one of my questions:

* Why 7 days rest between muscles being worked? Why not 3?.. 12?... How exactly does anyone know specifically WHEN to time there workouts to the Supercompensation Wave? :lame: