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Andrew87 · #11 05-31-2006, 06:47 AM

Well you all keep saying ass to grass and everyone else not on this website says parallel. They keep saying ass to grass will kill you knees. Decsions decsions.

Darkhorse · #12 05-31-2006, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew87

Well you all keep saying ass to grass and everyone else not on this website says parallel. They keep saying ass to grass will kill you knees. Decsions decsions.

Funny you should mention that...Here's what you should do:

1) Ask them if there's any studies suggesting that A2G is bad for your knees.. (there aren't any!! ) Then show them this one:

Quote:

There are several schools of thought on squat depth. Many misinformed individuals caution against squatting below parallel, stating that this is hazardous to the knees. Nothing could be further from the truth. (2) Stopping at or above parallel places direct stress on the knees, whereas a deep squat will transfer the load to the hips,(3) which are capable of handling a greater amount of force than the knees should ever be exposed to. Studies have shown that the squat produces lower peak tibeo-femoral(stress at the knee joint) compressive force than both the leg press and the leg extension.(4) For functional strength, one should descend as deeply as possible, and under control. (yes, certain individuals can squat in a ballistic manner, but they are the exception rather than the rule). The further a lifter descends, the more the hamstrings are recruited, and proper squatting displays nearly twice the hamstring involvement of the leg press or leg extension. (5,6) and as one of the functions of the hamstring is to protect the patella tendon (the primary tendon involved in knee extension) during knee extension through a concurrent firing process, the greatest degree of hamstring recruitment should provide the greatest degree of protection to the knee joint. (7) When one is a powerlifter, the top surface of the legs at the hip joint must descend to a point below the top surface of the legs at the knee joint.

2 Ariel, B.G., 1974. Biomechanical analysis of the knee joint during deep knee bends with a heavy load. Biomechanics. IV(1):44-52.

3 High- and low-bar squatting techniques during weight-training. Wretenberg P; Feng Y; Arborelius UP, Med Sci Sports Exerc, 28(2):218-24 1996 Feb

4 An analytical model of the knee for estimation of internal forces during exercise. Zheng N; Fleisig GS; Escamilla RF; Barrentine SW, J Biomech, 31(10):963-7 1998 Oct

5 Biomechanics of the knee during closed kinetic chain and open kinetic chain exercises. Escamilla RF; Fleisig GS; Zheng N; Barrentine SW; Wilk KE; Andrews JR Med Sci Sports Exerc, 30(4):556-69 1998 Apr

6 A comparison of tibiofemoral joint forces and electromyographic activity during open and closed kinetic chain exercises. Wilk KE; Escamilla RF; Fleisig GS; Barrentine SW; Andrews JR; Boyd ML Am J Sports Med, 24(4):518-27 1996 Jul-Aug

7 Chandler TJ and Stone MH. (1991) The squat exercise in athletic conditioning: a review of the literature. NSCA Journal. 13(5): 58-60.8 Hsieh, H. and P.S. Walker. 1976. Stabilizing mechanisms of the loaded and unloaded knee joint. Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery. 58A(1):87-93.

I'll edit this with more. Also, what do they're profiles look like?? That's the ten million dollar question.. You're probably posting rebuttles against either powerlifters (no need for A2G), teens who have 10+ years of experience, or guys walking on a pair of tooth picks.

Trust me, all you have to do is ask them for ONLY ONE study backing them up!! Just one..Not a tall order! It's always either, "I was told by a big guy at my gym"..Or, "My pussy hurts", "My colon's swollen!"

DISCLAIMER: I'm not saying A2G is the only way to squat and get big. I'm responding to the internet "fairy dust" that flairs up from time to time on other forums!

Darkhorse · #13 05-31-2006, 04:25 PM

*cough-cough*

Quote:

part 1: debunking the myths

The squat is, perhaps, the single best exercise for leg strength and development. Squatting significantly strengthens the muscles responsible for knee and hip extension: quadriceps, hamstrings, and glutes, as well as the smaller stabilizing muscles such as the torso musculature. The squatting motion and position is also the foundation for many other exercises, such as deadlifts, Olympic lifts, and even every day lifting tasks. I think it is a very worthwhile task to learn how to squat, and anyone who can get out of a chair can do it. It has benefits not just for your strength, but for balance, confidence, daily-life strength, cardiovascular capacity, and active flexibility.

Problem is, the squat is often taught incorrectly, and it's stigmatized as difficult and dangerous. People warn that it is bad for your knees and back, inappropriate for beginners (or anyone not a male collegiate athlete), too hard to learn, blah blah the sky is falling, etc. So, let's go through all the scary things we've heard about squatting, to debunk them one by one.

myth #1: squatting must not be done with a full range of motion or you will hurt your knees.

This is probably the worst myth of all. It's one of those "well known facts" which is mysteriously unsupported in the research (it's a well known fact that as soon as you say "it's a well known fact", you won't be able to back it up). According to this myth, full squats (a squat in which the knee joint is taken through a full range of motion, so that at the bottom the hamstrings make contact with the calves) are inherently dangerous, particularly to the knee joint.

While biomechanical research does support the fact that forces on the connective tissues of the knee increase with the knee angle, particularly on the posterior cruciate ligament, there is no evidence that these increased forces actually lead to injury. There is no direct evidence that full squatting causes or even exacerbates knee pain nor damage. I do not know of a single documented case where full squatting led directly to knee injury. Not one! Which is pretty amazing, considering that the clinical literature is positively littered with injury narratives. You'd think we'd see some evidence, but there is nothing, nada, zero. Studies of Olympic weightlifters and powerlifters, both of whom squat with heavy loads, show no increased risk of knee damage in either population. Olympic lifters, in particular, regularly drop to full depth under hundreds of pounds, perhaps as often a hundred times a week or more, for years, and yet their knees are healthier than those of people such as skiiers, jumpers, or runners. No study, short or long term, has ever shown an increase in knee laxity from deep squatting.

In fact, there is strong evidence that full squatting actually improves knee stability! The increased strength, balance, and proprioception from regular squatting can make a substantial contribution to keeping knees healthy. Progressive overload (beginning with a light load, then increasing gradually as the trainee is able) assists in strengthening connective tissues and muscles surrounding the joint.

Most interesting to me is the problem with what is usually recommended as "safe": squatting to parallel. At parallel (where the thigh is parallel to the floor, higher than the depth of a full squat by about 30 degrees), the compressive forces on the patella (kneecap) are actually at their highest (Huberti & Hayes, Journal of Bone Joint Surgery, 1984: 715-724). Decelerating, stopping, and reversing direction at this angle can inspire significant knee pain in even healthy people, whereas full squats present no problem. Another exercise which is supposedly "safer" is the leg extension, even though patellar tension and shear forces on the knee joint are demonstrably higher with such an exercise (see sidebar).

It is worthwhile at this point to comment on the things that do cause knee injury. The primary causes of knee injury involve:

a) twisting under a load

too much load (for example, I heard of a guy who boasted that he could squat 800 lbs. He had never done it before, and couldn't even full squat half that much, but he decided that 800 was a good round number, and he was going to attempt to quarter squat it. Long story short, knee ligaments did not agree with his assessment)

c) landing unevenly from a jump, especially with straightened rather than bent legs (this is a big problem for folks like basketball and volleyball players)

d) being in a situation where one part of the leg is held stationary while the other is moving (for example, stepping in a gopher hole while running: shin stays in place while the thigh keeps moving)

e) impact to the knee (such as a hit from the side or front in football)

f) squatting in a Smith machine which does not allow proper shifts in weight through the movement, and results in shear on knee and spine

In other words, knee injury usually results from varus or valgus force (twisting of the joint in either direction), inappropriate loading, or forcible shear across the joint. It does not occur simply from taking the knee joint through a full range of motion, using correct technique, and using a weight which is appropriate to the abilities of the trainee.
why are leg extensions hard on the knee joint?

To understand why this is, it is helpful to understand the concept of shear. Shear in this case just refers to a horizontal force on the joint. Imagine two cans stacked on top of one another, and imagine that a piece of masking tape joins them. Then, imagine what happens if you hold the top can still while you push the bottom can to one side. Eventually that tape will snap. This is a simplistic description of what happens to the knee joint in a leg extension.

Here is a simple diagram that attempts to explain the difference between the squat and the leg extension. The black lines represent the thigh bone, shin bones, and knee joint (black circle). In a squat, as shown in the figure on the left, your feet are on the ground (hopefully), and the force of the load is transmitted downwards, along the length of the bones. In a leg extension machine, there is a pad against the front of your shin or ankle, and you press against it to move the weight. The foot swings upward in an arc. Thus, as you can see in the figure on the right, the pressure is coming across the shin bones, not along their length. This creates the problem in the knee joint as the shin is pressed backwards.

Leg extensions do have their place, usually in rehab. If the leg extension machine is used, it is wise to use a smaller range of motion, perhaps the top third of the movement (from slightly bent to fully straight leg), and light weight.

This is not to say that everyone can immediately leap into full squatting. It is essential to learn to squat in a way that meets your individual needs, and I'll discuss that in Part 3. It is common to have difficulty with a full range of motion in the beginning. If knee pain is felt during the squatting motion, there are a few possible reasons. First, it is important to rule out existing pathology. Some people may indeed have knees that are so damaged that they are unable to squat, but this is rare (and these people are probably walking with a cane). In particular, full squatting is contraindicated for someone with an acute posterior cruciate ligament (PCL) injury, but these types of injuries are uncommon and usually result from something like a car accident. Someone who has rehabilitated a PCL injury can attempt full squats with light loading, and see how it goes. With correct loading and technique, anterior cruciate ligaments (ACL) and medial cruciate ligament (MCL) injuries generally don't present a problem. I know someone who is even missing an ACL on one knee, and has a reconstructed ACL on the other, and she squats quite happily.

Some people may have irritation in the joint due to things like patellofemoral syndrome or age-related degeneration, and the goal initially should be to squat in a pain-free range, while aiming to increase that range and strengthen the muscles around the joint. Some people may experience pain due to poor technique, which includes allowing the knees to cave in or twisting during the ascent. In this case, the trainer should again establish probable cause and direct attention to remedial work (such as stretching and additional strengthening) in conjunction with improving pain-free range of motion and correct technique. In Part 4 of this article, I suggest some stretches and assistance exercises to help you eliminate possible problems.

Do not do an exercise, no matter how great that exercise is, if it causes you pain. Find alternatives or modify the exercise. Full squats are great, and most folks can eventually do them....

Darkhorse · #14 05-31-2006, 04:35 PM

That's just to get you started...Go get 'em!

Now, from my own personal experience.. When I was 18 I suffered from torn cartilage in my right knee. I was showing off in high school and executed a full front flip on the school's stage. (I landed it). But, after about 4 steps, my knee locked 90 degrees. Few hours later I suffered from extreme pain.

I ended up having major surgery and the doctor was able to stitch it back in my knee. So, if anyone complains about bad knees, it'll fucking be me. Since I started going A2G, sitting on my calves, my knee flexability has increased and it's ten times stronger than it was when I was running three miles a day in the Marine Corps... My max 100% RAW is 355 for a set of 3 reps.. So, if A2G was SO fucking bad, I'm pretty sure my cartilage would've ruptured at some point under that load. BTW, I was doing that weight going A2G three Goddamn times a week!..5x5 style. So, since A2G is so bad, I'm surprised that I'm still alive and not in a wheelchair. Holy fuck, we've got a ton of real winners cruising the bodybuilding boards these days don't we!

Darkhorse · #15 05-31-2006, 04:43 PM

One more thing. Here's an old topic from BN that has a few posts that you wouldn't believe! One "member" thought for sure that going ass to the grass would:

a) put you in a wheelchair at 55 years old..

b) give you a ghetto booty!

Read it for yourself. Again, notice not one study showing A2G being bad for your knees! Click Here

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0311

It's always either, "I was told by a big guy at my gym"..Or, "My pussy hurts", "My colon's swollen!"

It's also funny how training guru's like John Smith, Matt Reynolds, Glenn Pendlay, "Madcow", and of course Dante (founder of DC Training) always say for bodybuilder's to go as far down as humanly possible for growth.. I'll find some direct quotes just for "dramatic effect"...Mainly cause I'm sick of hearing about shit like, "A2G is bad for your knees"..or, "High reps burn fat"..or my favorite, "You need to hit the muscle from every angle"..

Darkhorse · #16 05-31-2006, 05:03 PM

Might as well make this thread as informative as possible:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freddy over at Meso-RX

Ok, its becoming blatantly obvious that precious few of you know how to "olympic" style squat.

There are basically two kinds of back-squat. What we like to refer to as the power-squat, or the powerlifter style squat, or the low bar squat. This is what COMPETITIVE powerlifters and strength athletes should be concerned with. I'll save that for another thread.

Its FAR more important that most of you learn to Olympic style squat first. Most every weight-trainer should know how to do this, whether you're a competitive olympic weightlifter, powerlifter, strongman, highland games athlete, or even if you're just a recreational, non-competitive bodybuilder like most people in this forum...

There is no faster way to get big and strong ALL over your entire body, and the reason that many of you guys do tons of gear and are still big pussies is because you can't Oly squat for shit!

ALSO, I know that most of you THINK you know how to squat. Well, I'll tell you all that most of you don't.

Here is how you properly "oly" squat:

1.) Take a medium-narrow stance. This varies a lot between athletes. Its not really important which stance you prefer, so long as you pick the one that lets you get the DEEPEST. Do NOT pick the one you are strongest at, pick the one that gives you the BIGGEST range of motion. For some athletes, this might even be a slightly wide stance.

2.) Wear the bar as high as possible. Do not wear it low on your back. It should be near your neck or the top of your traps.

3.) Do them raw. This means NO equipment. No tight ass knee wraps, and unless you're a competitive athlete, NO belt. If you're doing them right, knee wraps will just prevent you from getting as deep as possible. Instead, wear neoprene knee sleeves or ace-bandage wraps that can be purchased for very little money at any local pharmacy. Remember, oly squats are FAR better for your knees than quarter squats done with knee wraps on, so stop crying like a 10 year old girl and LEARN how to do it. It might take a week or two.

4.) Footwear is very important. THAT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN EXPENSIVE. Now, I won't lie to you, the BEST footwear is custom made olympic lifting shoes. These can be purchased from a variety of sources, which I may get into later. HOWEVER, if you're too cheap, broke, or lazy to purchase another pair of shoes (though its pretty much a one-time purchase) DO WHAT THE OLDSCHOOL LIFTERS DID! Squat barefoot. No, you won't be able to get QUITE as deep without oly shoes on. But you WILL get pretty DAMN close. Everyone I've ever met or trained with could get ass-to-grass barefoot, and one of my training partners could actually touch the floor with his ass while oly squatting barefoot.

5.) Stop being a fucking pussy about it. I am so sick and damn tired of the excuses for not oly squatting. JS has personally coached literally hundreds of athletes, and has trained with or watched thousands of others. ALL were capable of learning to Oly squat with a few or so weeks practice. My old training partner has pronounced scoliosis and still went on to oly squat 2x bodyweight. If you are hurting your knees, 99.9% of the time its not your genetics, YOU'RE JUST DOING THEM WRONG.

Kane · #17 05-31-2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0311

"You need to hit the muscle from every angle"..

Is that angle acute or fuckin obtuse? Goddamn I don't think I can handle this....its getting too difficult, BB'ing is supposed to be easy

Darkhorse · #18 05-31-2006, 05:14 PM

Matt Reynolds talking to people who want to run his DFHT/DFST training.. He suggests that if you cannot A2G squat double your bodyweight to do the Bill Starr's 5x5 to work on A2G squatting strength before doing his program...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Reynolds

DUAL FACTOR STRENGTH TRAINING (RAW GRITTY STRENGTH)

OK, for those of you who's primary goal is just raw, gritty strength, then this is a slight variation of the DFHT-Revisited program.

Also, as with DFHT, if you can't squat AT LEAST 1.5x your bodyweight Olympic Style, butt sitting on your heels, then you need to be doing JS's 5x5 program coupled with his 8 week squatting program (they work together). Over the last couple years I have become good personal friends with JS and have had the opportunity to train with him. The 5x5 is hands down the best mass and strength builder for beginner to intermediates out there. Even most of JS's elite level athletes and many of us elite level powerlifters use the 5x5 for some time during the year to get back to building slabs of mass and give us a break from the really heavy stuff we do. It's just a good, solid, unmatched program for beginners to upper level intermediates who desperately need to pack on mass and get much stronger in the core lifts.

Now, when you get to the point when you can squat double your bodyweight raw Olympic Style ATF, then you really won't be able to handle squatting 3 times per week anymore because the overall volume and load is increased so much. So, both JS and myself advocated dropping the squatting to twice per week; one heavy and one lighter (but still really hard work). This is where DFHT comes into play.

Darkhorse · #19 05-31-2006, 05:52 PM

Here's some A2G pics before they all died. Here's the article from the paper:

Obituary: One year later after the fatal ass to the grass squats, our heroes shown in the picture (attachment) were walking down a flight of stairs together when all of a sudden their knees buckled and they tumbled down to their untimely death. They will all be sorely missed.

Andrew87 · #20 06-02-2006, 11:46 AM

any of you guys have a video of something of AG2 so i can see how it looks in action so i can make sure i do them right? Thanks

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Full Squat Vs Parallel Squat