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Knees Over Toes MYTH



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Old 11-15-2008, 12:40 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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Default Knees Over Toes MYTH

Still seems like a lot of people here are laboring under this myth. Instead of discussing it myself I'll provide a bunch of other references.


Tony Gentilcoure -Head, Shoulders, Knees Over Toes

Myth: The knees should never project ahead of the toes during any exercise.

In a study titled, “How many clueless aerobic instructors and personal trainers still follow this archaic nonsense,” done by The Journal of Stupidity, it was shown that a vast majority of fitness professionals still believe the above myth to be true. Matter of fact, the same study showed that many fitness professionals would rather see you club a baby seal (that’s just mean) than witness your knees project over your toes while under their supervision.

Needless to say, they’re wrong. Sarcasm aside, having the knees project over the toes is perfectly normal and occurs quite frequently in everyday life. Just ask anyone who participates in football, karate, dance, or mudwrestling. Heck, try walking up a flight of stairs without your knees going over your toes. Despite all of this, many fitness professionals still claim that the knees going over the toes during weight bearing exercise is dangerous. I’ll even go so far as to say that this guideline has assumed the stature of law in the aerobics world.

In past writings, both Eric Cressey and Alwyn Cosgrove have referenced one study which kinda debunks this whole myth.

Fry AC, Smith JC, Schilling BK. Effect of knee position on hip and knee torques during the barbell squat. J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov;17(4):629-33.

The above study examined joint kinetics during back squats under two conditions. The first condition placed a board in front of the participants’ shins, which restricted forward displacement of the knee. In the second condition, movement wasn’t restricted at all. They squatted normally and the knees were allowed to pass the toes (GASP).

Squat Joint Kinetics

The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat (not allowing the knees to go over toes) increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased “internal angle at the knees and ankles.”

The results showed a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque! That stress has to go somewhere. Keeping the knees behind the toes definitely reduces the forces on the knee, but those forces were transferred more than tenfold to the hips and lower back. Translation: that’s an ouchie.

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Men’s Fitness
E MYTH: You should never let your knees go past your toes on squats and lunges.

HOW IT STARTED: One too many injuries during the squat or lunge—but it was probably the result of accidentally rotating at the hips during a rep, which can cause ligament damage in the knee.

THE TRUTH: Where your knees end up during any lift is highly dependent on the length of your legs and where on your joints the muscles attach. Some people (usually shorter guys) can squat easily without the knees passing over their toes in the down position, but others (usually taller guys) may find that their knees drift far forward. Purposely trying to keep your knees behind your toes when your body doesn’t want to puts a lot more strain on your hips and lower back, and that can lead to worse injuries. As the late exercise scientist Mel C. Siff, Ph.D., noted in his book Facts and Fallacies of Fitness, “The Japanese sit on the floor with their knees folded fully flexed beneath them, bearing all their body weight for prolonged periods daily without producing an epidemic of knee injuries.”


My only thought would be that you are somehow under an incorrect impression. Have you ever seen an Olympic lifter catch a clean without putting the knees waaaaaaayy out in front of the toes? I honestly do not know where this myth comes from (maybe AFAA or ACE or NASM or ACSM or some other organization that is not actually involved in strength training), but I seen no evidence that the patellar tendons cannot handle being placed a couple of inches in front of the toes. I mean, we all get up off of the toilet this way without any trouble, even those of us that are kinda large.

So remember this - the “golden rule” that the knee should never cross the line of the toe during any type of lunging exercise should be buried in the ocean with the lost city of Atlantis. (Of course, if this position causes consistent pain, then you should avoid this particular variation of the exercise).

“Chip”
Rip's being diplomatic. The notion has no logical, physiological, mechanical, or empirical foundations. It's unexplainable, damned near invincible, ignorance. The greater strain is put on the knees by not letting them pass over the toe, e.g. wall-sit and Smith Machine squats where trapping the hip puts an enormous shear force on the – chip


Lean Body Fitness Blog –
Myth Number 3: You shouldn't let your knees go past the front of your toes while squatting or when doing a lunge.

First, again, go back to the babies. watch their knees and you'll see that they naturally go forward and past the front of your toes.

The biggest problem I see with this myth is that if you are watching where your knees are going, you could be causing bigger problems in other areas: your lower back.

In a squat, your lower back should be in a neutral and flat position. You should keep your eyes looking straight ahead in order to keep it in that position. You don't want your lower back to round. If you're paying attention to your knees, meaning, you're looking down at your knees, your lower back immediately goes into a rounding position. Not good.

In a lunge, you want your upper body to be straight up and down. Don't lean forward. And I'll give you one guess as to what happens when you look down to see where your knees are in comparison to your toes.....Yup, the upper body leans forward.

Bottom line, don't worry where your knees are compared to your toes, just keep your eyes looking straight ahead and your back flat on a squat, and upper body straight on a lunge.

Alwyn Cosgrove –
Myth:

"Don't let your knee pass your foot during lunges."


Real-World Response

This one is really easy. My answer is, what about the other knee? In a lunge, it's apparently too dangerous for the knee of the front leg to extend past the toes. Meanwhile the knee of the back leg is past the toes the whole time.

I've had people respond by saying that there's no load on the back leg during a lunge. Okay then, put 135 pounds on your back and go down to the bottom of a lunge. Now lift your back foot off the floor. I rest my case.

The shirt may be optional, but using both feet to lunge is mandatory.


Scientific Response

When talking about knees going forward, one study jumps out. Fry, Smith, and Schilling (2003) examined joint kinetics during back squats under two conditions.

The first condition placed a board in front of the participants' shins, which restricted forward displacement of the knee. In the second condition, movement wasn't restricted at all. They squatted normally and the knees were allowed to pass the toes.

The researchers found that restricting the forward excursion of the knees during the squat increased anterior lean of the trunk and promoted an increased "internal angle at the knees and ankles."

The results showed a 22% decrease in knee torque and a 1070% increase in hip torque! That stress has to go somewhere. Keeping the knees behind the toes definitely reduces the forces on the knee, but those forces were transferred more than tenfold to the hips and lower back.

You can be guy number one or guy number two. Your choice.

Obviously this study was in regard to squatting. However, the knee angle in a lunge would be similar and we could expect similar findings.


Wrap-Up

• For strength and joint health, using the full range of motion on squats is more beneficial than squatting to parallel.

• Squatting deep isn't any more hazardous to the knees than squatting shallow. So stop being a puss and go low.

• Performing an unloaded, bodyweight squat is an excellent assessment tool and can be used often as a "body check-up."

• Keeping your knees behind your toes when squatting or lunging is a little better for your knees, but much, much worse for your hips and lower back.

Links:

http://www.dieselcrew.com/articles-pdf/kneesbeyondtoes.pdf
http://www.exrx.net/Kinesiology/Squats.html

18 Tips for Bullet-Proof Knees
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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Last edited by EricT; 11-15-2008 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 11-15-2008, 02:39 PM
mad matt mad matt is offline
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Ive only just started squatting and my knees seem to overlap my toes naturally. Very informative thread thanks Eric.

Last edited by mad matt; 11-15-2008 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 11-15-2008, 04:21 PM
EricT EricT is offline
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Thanks. I removed the quote by Marc McDougal since after reading it a couple more times I realized it was, um, stupid.

Anyway if people really want to know why they're knees hurt then they need to look at knee alignment, and rotary forces at the knee. We're talking what is going on at the joints above and below the knee for that. The hips and ankles.

I posted YET ANOTHER resource article in the Injuries sticky on knee ouchies.
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:49 PM
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excellent article by MR....nice pictures too
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:25 PM
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yes some very good info here, E. Thanks for posting this, sir.
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Old 11-16-2008, 03:43 AM
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Eric, you always post some good stuff. Thanks for the free info.
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