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Went through the stickies and search function and couldn't really find anything pertaining to this type of soreness. Just let me know if anyone else experienced this type of injury. Been doing Rippetoe's for 3 weeks now and was actually surprised when my squat went up 20 lbs one day. Next day, my spine felt like someone dropped a hammer on it. It doesn't feel like muscle soreness, just sharp pains if I try to get out of bed or twist it in a certain fashion. I think I'm keeping good posture doing the squats however I don't bring my ass to my ankles like it describes in some threads. I just don't think I could keep stabilized so I bring it around mid calf. My posture during the military press scares me, even only using 35lbs on each side, around the last reps of the second and 3rd sets, I'm shaking and feel my back giving out so I start arching it for support. Any questions/comments? related injuries?

Videos of your squats would help, but I'm not about to suggest you go out and squat. No point in injuring yourself to find out how you got injured

Your description of military press scares me as well. You should not be over arching your lower back to get your reps. If your back is giving out or you cant keep an arch (not just for this, but any exercise that requires it) then either stop or reduce the weight.

Depth doesn't matter, what does matter is how good your form is at that depth. If you can't do a deep squat with good form, then don't. Only go as far as you can with good form and work on getting better in a deeper position, but not with a working sets weight.

Q&A:
How heavy is your squat?

Where was the bar positioned? (on traps, lower than traps, back of your neck, etc)

What were you looking at? (floor, ceiling, hot chick doing lunges, etc)

When you squat, do you push with your heels or your toes?

Where does your chest point? (down, up, sideways, etc)

More to come after these are answered Others will probably chime in as well.

Just to be clear up front, I am in no way going to attempt to diagnose or deal with the back pain. My aim is to dissect your squatting and help with form.

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"Pain don't hurt" - Dalton

"NO, this is my squat rack. Go get your own!"

"Damn that's shit heavy" - Wolf


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I agree with Kane on the depth issue and all the great questions.

This once again, goes to show that the "fastest possible progression" isn't always the best. Rippetoes, ONCE AGAIN, gets someone hurt. And YES, it is the programs fault. Because if someone is encouraged to maintain quality movement and to improve movement plus do things that fix alignment AND to load properly, they won't get hurt so soon.

People should NOT be getting such injuries on a "beginning" program.

I'm sorry you were injured.

I would not suggest you just jump right back on the horse that threw you.

You have an "acute" injury but we can't say what the underlying faults were that led to it but it's probably safe to say that you "overloaded" and it was quite possible the mp's rather than the squats.

I'd suggest you take some rest. Then get moving again by implementing a dynamic mobility program. There are examples in the forums. A good mobility program, in itself, can go a long ways toward fixing a lot of faults "automatically".

I'd suggest you do core training OTHER than just squats and deads. The whole thing about deads and squats being the ONLY core training you need is simply macho bullshit. It's not how the body works.

You'll want static core work like planks and plank variations. And anti-rotation core work. And some rotation such as cable-wood chops or something along those lines.

You should watch Dan John's video which is posted on the site and watch it again. And again. That will teach you about how to do squats and how to move your body in general a lot better than Rippetoe.

All those questions posed by Kane are good ones. Please answer them. But any corrections made need to be made in a proper training environment. You cannot do that while pounding away trying to load aggressively on Rippetoes. HE would tell you different but HE will also not do a DAMN THING to help you past injuries.

He might write a sentence or two though.

I cant really do much more, besides making general recs, without a postural assessment, etc..

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Even though I had been lifting for over 20 years, I was not pushing myself to progress nor was I doing squats with good form. A year ago, I did a Rippetoe 5x5 variation (StrongLifts 5x5) that had you lift 3 days per week starting with empty bar and adding weight each workout

First day (M) I did 5 sets of 5 with an empty 45lb bar and progressed from there with 5-10lb increments depending upon whether it was squat, deadlift, bench press or row. I frequently consulted the StrongLifts eBook and later obtained a copy of Rippetoe's Starting Strength so that I could focus on form while weight was low. YouTube can help a lot but you need to make sure that who you are watching someone doing it correctly.

It was difficult at first to be lifting such "puny" weights but in retrospect, it was extremely beneficial. I used to have lower back pain but between using foam rolling, mobility exercises, and good form while lifting, I have not had any lifting related injuries. I now do ATG ("ass-to-grass" or very deep) squats at a little over 1.5 times my bodyweight.

Ironically, I ended up with lower back pain a few days ago from sitting in at a computer with a stiff chair for several hours.

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How heavy is your squat?
I started off just using single 45lb plates on each side and in the beginning, 90lbs on each side was unfinishable in the 3rd set. The day I think I may have injured it I went fopr 215, which I had previosuly been doing 195 for about a week. I don't try to go too heavy and add weight everytime I goto the gym like the program says, I just cant do it. So I lift with a weight until it becomes comftorable (at most 3 visits to the gym) then add more and start over.

Where was the bar positioned? (on traps, lower than traps, back of your neck, etc)
I position the bar (and foam pad) on my traps, trying to keep it off the top of my spine becuase it causes me pain and when Im trying to concentrate on my form I dont want to be in pain from my neck. I do like examples say, I try to place it on a comftorable spot on the traps and pull it down onto my traps instead of just holding it there.
What were you looking at? (floor, ceiling, hot chick doing lunges, etc)

When you squat, do you push with your heels or your toes?
Sitting by my computer now and trying to recall correctly, I believe I push off pretty evenly. I pay attention to foot position so I dont lose balance. Im not on my heals, however Im not on my toes either, I am trying to keep a good foot planting. This is also the reason I don't goto the ground, becuase when I do I feel my heels coming up natrually and don't want to lose balance.

Where does your chest point? (down, up, sideways, etc)
I try to keep my chest pointed straight ahead. Also, my head is pointed straight ahead as well and I am looking in the mirror in front cand concentrating on the movement.


I hope this will help, funny you should mention the computer chair thing. I am a network engineer so I spend about 12 hours a day inside a chair, that may be the root of the problem, with the improper lifting worsening the issue. I only military press 35's on each side, I guess I could step it down to 30's, but the problem being, I havent seen any gains on that lift if any. I feel like I'll be stuck on 60 + bar forever.

What were you looking at? (floor, ceiling, hot chick doing lunges, etc)

I keep my head level and facing forward. I focus straight ahead of me and watch the movement in the mirror.

Ditch the mirror. Better to focus on what you are actually doing rather than what it looks like you are doing. Use a video camera. Others can then critique your lifting using your video.

I agree. You need to rely on proprioception. The mirror can give you bad information and it divides your senses in a confusing way. Think about it, are we really meant to learn to move by watching ourselves move? Of course not.

I want to touch on this "form" thing. By the time you are aggressively loading the bar workout to workout if you still have form issues than it's too late. It doesn't matter how many times someone checks your form. Your body makes compensations to get the job done as the weight increases.

I also object to relying on guys at the gym to give you checks. Pick 10 trainees and .5 of them maybe know how to evaluate movement, etc. MOST trainees HAVE bad form. They THINK their form is great.

But it's more than "form". Form is just a mental checklist. If you have to think about what you are doing then you obviously haven't "learned" to do it. Your body learns movement and hones in movement by a number of pathways, almost none of which have to do with concious thought.

The learning to swim analogy is the best one I know. Compare two techniques for "teaching" someone to swim.

Teach them proper technique and build it up in a systematic way while addressing needs they might have such as core stability and maybe thoracic mobility. Then you end up with a SWIMMER.

OR there is the 'sink or swim' technique. You toss into the deep end and say 'now swim'. While they thrash around you give them some helpful pointers. Meanwhile they're in the midst of saving themselve from drowning. Either they do drown or they end up being able to tread water in a way that eventually gets them somewhere.

Later on, after "swimming" in the fashion they learned through sheer necessity they notice they suck at swimming. So they try to mimick what they see good swimmers do in a concious way. Which results in...even worse swimming. They've already honed in this inefficient way of moving through the water. The more they might have been the the water the more ingrained the movement is. Any attempt to alter this is very difficult because they are a FULL CUP.

You wanna fill a cup you need to empty it first. But it is extremely difficult to undo motor learning. So that unlearning the bad things in order to learn the good things takes a lot longer. And even once you've produced a competent swimmer they will NEVER be as proficient as they would have been had they been properly coached and brought along in the first place.

Lifting and any other type of movement is exactly the same.

You get in there, start a program, start loading the bar while "paying attention to form" and you are basically using the sink or swim movement.

Starting out extremely light can be a bit misleading when it comes to certain movements, also. Certainly with squats.

There is actually a reason why Rippetoe wants people to graduate past the empty bar as quickly as possible and begin the program with some weight on it.

It has to do with alignment. Alignment has to do with your COG (center of gravity). Assuming you have perfect alignment (almost nobody does) then you center of gravity is somewhere toward the center of you body just anterior to well..your ass bone.

Center of gravity refers to the point at which, if a force is applied equally downward, the body is in equilibrium. Whatever postion that may be there is a point where this equilibrium occurs.

What happens when you put a barbell on your shoulders is that you are moving the COG. The point around which equilibrium occurs changes. This is why where you place the bar can make such a huge difference.

But it stands to reason, that the weight on the bar has a large influence. Basically if the weight is too light then then the COG is not shifted as much. So, in other words, as you move your body, it does not have to make the same adjustments as it would if the bar were heavier.

So it seems quite the right thing to do to start with a weight that seems feather light and just add 5 or 10 lbs a workout. Intuition tells you that you are gradually acclimating to more weight.

The problem is that if it's too "easy" there is not much to adapt too. As you're loading this light bar very aggressively you are basically not doing enough to "overload" in every sense of that.

And I am not saying it's because you don't feel tired or sore. Nothing like that.

As Rippetoe would say, you used a weight that was too light to require proper form. That is part of it. You had so much wiggle room with the light weight you didn't really have to learn to handle weight. It just wasn't enough of a challenge to equilibrium to force any particular technique or movement pattern.

The other part of it is threshold. You go along workout by workout putting weight on the bar and then quite suddenly you reach this threshold range where the weight is challenging and here you are committed to pounding out a subscribed number of reps and sets with loads you are not prepared for in the way you think you are.

The body adapts the only way it can.

I can't go too much further but I recognize that many people are going to perceive excellent results in the short term. Until they reach ANOTHER threshold.

I submit that the load threshold and the injury threshold, working together is a reason we see sudden injuries in programs like this. EVERYONE comes to training with baggage.

Like Doo mentioned sitting at the computer and getting a sore back. Your whole life stuff like that results in either good or bad tissue changes. Mostly bad when you factor in sedentary lifestyles or exercise and sport that is TOO directed and specialized without proper foundation.

You start lifting Rippetoe style and you really have no idea what weight to start with. People can give you guidelines and all that but it's very subjective. You are getting badly confused feedback from your body while you're doing it.

You take that baggage and start lifting and you are setting up a scenario where you are just waiting to reach injury threshold where chronic small tissue change (damage) becomes acute injury. You add to the problem with faulty movement, etc. Then suddenly you throw in the final ingredient..the load threshold and you end up with what we have in this thread.

I'm not saying it's so very bad. I'm just saying there is a reason it happened that has everything to do with improper programming and not just "bad form".

^ Nice...

Nice post, Eric.

Weight
Its quite a jump to go from 135 (45lb each side) to 215 in 3 weeks. Unless I misunderstood something.

Bar Position
I wouldn't be actively pulling down on the bar ie something like an isometric pullup. Lets the bar stay on your traps and have a good grip on the bar, imo there is nothing to be gained by pulling down on the bar consciously. It might happen if you're really grinding out a rep, but I wouldn't be doing it purposely.

Feet!
If you're coming up on your toes as you descend deeper, then it means your centre of gravity is shifting past the middle of your foot. Thats not a good thing. You want all the weight/force to travel down through the heel and into the floor. This is why box squats are an excellent tool, they teach you to sit back and get that weight through the heels.

So how does the cog shift? I'm guessing your back is rounding because it can't handle the weight during the movement. You have the right idea by keeping the chest up, but I suspect that you're either rounding or squatting on top of your knees (not sitting back enough).

Take a look at Dan John's video and try the goblet squats. If anyone wants to workout with me, I give them the goblet squat test before I even let them touch a barbell. I usually get them to stand with feet together, take a step forward, get into squat stance and do a goblet squat. Then evaluate their ability and go from there. I would guess that you fail the test the first few times. Which is perfectly alright, and also much better than doing it with a loaded barbell, imo.

I'm not a personal trainer and I don't claim to be one, but I'm not going to train with anyone half-assed or risk preventable injuries.

I would say a video of goblet squats would be good enough, and maybe even safer with the injury, for an initial critique. People usually change under the bar for some reason.

I agree about the mirror, its not a good tool to use. You could use it from the side to check your initial position for a deadlift or the bottom position of a goblet squat, things like that but not straight on and not dynamically.