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Training discussion on My Training History, within the Bodybuilding Forum; Dammit guys now I need to set aside like 2 hours to read all this thoroughly,I know I'll do it ...


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Old 11-07-2008, 05:08 PM   #21
HIThopper
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Dammit guys now I need to set aside like 2 hours to read all this thoroughly,I know I'll do it when I go back to work!!!

Great stuff fellas,really enjoying it.

HIThopper's Sig:There are no shortcuts. The fact that a shortcut is important to you means that you are a pussy. Let me be clear here: if you'd rather take steroids than do your squats heavy and drink enough milk, then you are a Fucking Pussy. I have no time or patience for Fucking Pussies. Please tell everyone you know that I said this.- Mark Rippetoe

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Old 11-07-2008, 05:13 PM   #22
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Just back to work tonight so I have lots of time to read this now.

Very good stuff.

I to owe a lot to DH. He may or may not know it , but I'm always following his training and hit him up with questions whenever I come to a stall. Not once to be turned away or push off to the side. I give a ton of credit to him and with his help I have been able to hit a 500 box squat - raw, and just a few days again I was able to hit 500 on the bench ( with a shirt ).

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Old 11-08-2008, 07:28 AM   #23
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Shucks.
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Old 11-08-2008, 10:37 AM   #24
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Some very good info Darkhorse, thank you, I havent read through Erics bits yet but I will later, im sure there's some very good info in Erics contribution to

"Personally I prefer keeping everything heavy while dropping the volume down"

I noticed this comment in the deloading bit, just say on a 5x5 program some guy needs to deload, instead of the usual weight reset and work back up and beyond, would staying at the same weight and doing 3x3 instead of 5x5 for a couple of weeks, and then continuing with the same weight at 5x5 when your recovered be a good idea? a good way of deloading?

For example some one squating 300 for 5x5 misses reps, feels overtrained etc
So instead of resetting he does 300 for 3x3 for a couple of weeks(until recovered) and then continues with 300 for 5x5, and then adds weight (hopefully) to the bar for a few weeks after.
Hope I make sense
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:39 PM   #25
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I'll let DH answer the question specifically and I'll just speak about deloading in general. The intensity reset is, quite frankly, something I've found to be, through my own experience, and a lot of harcore learning not necesssary for "most" lifters and certainly not for those in the intermediate phase using volume protocols like 5x5.

First to repeat my mantra a few times: Quality over quantity. Quality over quantity.

Now..the classic deload is simply to reduce volume by 40 percent and maintain or even raise intensity. Apply that to whatever days of the week and whatever movements it is needed. In most cases whith any 5x5 setup you can reduce volume and maintain or raise intensity across the board but you only need to apply it religously to the highest volume days.

The thing is you would be best not waiting for a complete plateau with that. A little before. Basically when you find quality going down the tube. Percieve effort can help you with that. I.E. the a given weight simply feels heavier than it should and the effort it takes to lift it feels unnaturally high. You haven't lost absolute ability yet, though.

Now, that may or not be a "planned" deload. And I don't think it is necessary for everyone to plan deloads at arbitrary times. But some people are less in tune to themselves due to experience than others, so....

However, as far as the planning aspect of it it helps to think of your "deload" as your peak. After all, in this case you are hoping to raise intensity. It would be good not to miss reps at whatever volume range you reduce it too. Keep that in mind.

So in other words you are recovering from the volume but trying to LIFT HEAVIER. So you're not exactly just being a wimp about things with your deload which is how some people view a planned one. Just think of it as how you cycle your workouts. I.E. I "peak" at this time.

With a 5x5 setup after a peaking week I would suggest a building back up to the volume. So instead of building the intensity you keep the intensity and build the sets. Although you don't have to go straight-away to 5x5 again. If you're able and healthy you could turn that "deload" into a heavier lifting phase. So in that way it would be the beginning of a meso-cycle, if that helps you view it.

The length of the deload will depend on just how long you've been training. But if it takes longer than two weeks to recover from a volume protocol...imo, you've overloaded too long and you are risking injury, immuno supression, etc..

I know that goes against, a little, the DFT 5x5 protocol. But I'm talking about the recovery aspect of it.

Shit, that was more than I meant to write.

Anyway...lest someone thing I'm really saying something completely different than DH:

Quote:
After 4-5 weeks, I'm about topped off and needing that deload. But, instead of taking a "deload week" as defined as the volume slash, blah, blah, blah, I instead went straight to the strength phase which was always modelled after westside. The difference being that the strength phase was lower volume (a lot lower in some cases), and the supplemental and accessory work was typically without a long eccentric which kept DOMS almost non-existant. So what I found was happening with my body was the volume phase certainly overreached me, then when I transitioned to my strength phases, it served the dual purpose, and deloaded me completely, all the while increasing my overall strength.
In this case I'm talking about that standard volume slash and then basically a strength phase..whatever floats your boat in that case. I know some people will hesitate to except 5x5 as a comparison to DH's hypertrophy phase, but just keep in mind that intensity an volume is comparitive. And most intermediates who have been doing the 5x5 thing for a while have hardly really tasted maximal strength work.

Last edited by EricT; 11-08-2008 at 03:29 PM..

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:46 PM   #26
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it was only supposed to be two sentences wasn't it


good stuff in here fellas.
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Old 11-08-2008, 02:49 PM   #27
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Pretty much, sorry. For me these threads are like going grocery shopping while hungry
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Old 11-08-2008, 03:06 PM   #28
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I would like to point out, D, that this thread has almost 400 views here as opposed to 363 at IA's huge-ass forum. Isn't nice to be home?
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Old 11-08-2008, 04:03 PM   #29
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Here I go with the blah, blah, blah some more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkhorse in Working Class Hero
How many times have you heard:

..Not optimal
..Not popular
..Where's the (pick popular compound exercise)
..That's not what "So and so does"

While many times that's exactly what some trainees need to hear, there's a lot that people just don't take into account. So those words get replaced with "availability" and "what I can, when I can".
1. Not optimal :This brings to mind a PM conversation where I said to DH:

One of my problems is the the concept of what is necessary and sound versus what is "optimal". So many people base stuff on these abstract concepts like "optimal"...I know I used to. The problem is optimal is entirely subjective because it is also based on an individuals viewpoint of what is ACCEPTABLE. Like injuries will happen so fuck it and get injured while training optimally!

But what is necessary and sound that is something different. That requires you to be objective...to step back a bit and not take training so personally.

And:

Here's my deal. Sometimes I think it may be best to talk about 'getting BETTER' rather than 'getting STRONGER'. It all comes down to the same thing in the end but the mindset is completely different.

2. Not popular

In think I’ve already expressed some of my views on that in this thread. I think the end of the “Asking Advice” thread about “authority figures” is relevant here:

http://www.bodybuilding.net/personal-journals/asking-advice-11980.html#post69287

A lot of “popular” things come to mind right now. Crossfit for example.

I’m beating a yet again but the concept of the pendulum is always at work. Even with 5x5 training we see something relatively old being brought around again. And whether it’s completely new things or old concepts there can always be that over-reaction. Always be aware of the danger of over-reaction AND of under-reaction. The inevitable backlash when thing become overused. Don’t let the over-valuing of something cause you to dismiss it but CERTAINLY don’t let the undue excitement over something cause you to forget everything you know.

3. Where’s the (pick popular compound exercise)

I blame us all for this. This has to stop. I also blame Rippetoe a great deal with his there is only a handful of usefull exercises CRAP. Well…then why is he in bed with Crossfit, huh? Hmmm……money talks, bullshit walks.

If I here about an exercise being “the KING” one more time…I swear! Somebody comes on and says they can’t squat so everybody just say’s, oh, you just probably need to squat deeper. Or this or that. Squatting will cure you knees. But for whatever reason people really feel a need to convince others to do certain things because they are “optimal” (see # 1). And of course that is EXACTLY what someone wants to hear. You can get strong without ANY one particular exercise. And it is OK to work on your problems and injuries before you get back to them. You CAN get a training effect without back squatting or anything that happens to be troubling you.

Someone says that dipping hurts they’re AC joint and there is always the yahoo that wants to say (dipping is the KING of upper body movements). Well hey, I rate pull-ups over that but I’m not going to convince someone with a bad elbow injury how they should be doing pull-ups right now. Or a shoulder injury or whatever.

How many times do we get someone who has equipment limitations or time limitations and we tell them they can’t do this or that. They need to join a gym. Blah, blah, blah. Tell them what they can do. If you don’t KNOW what they can do then maybe your are not so smart as you think you are.

4. That’s not what so and so does..

So and so is a “case study”. I’m stealing from Mike Robertson’s blog but I will post the link and urge everyone to check out his site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Robertson
http://www.robertsontrainingsystems.com/index.html]

N=1 (A)
I’m always leery of this. Always.

What am I talking about exactly? I’m talking about trainees and coaches whose experience and frame of reference is limited to one person. Whether that one person is them, one client, etc. is irrelevant.

You’ll quite often hear people say, “I did X with Y client and it worked great.” Or, “I do A and got B.” The inherent problem is this – would you get that same result with another person? With multiple people? With an entire training group?

What I’m getting at here is using the “I do this because so and so says so” pisses me off. Could that person be correct? Sure. For example, I’d accept just about anything that Stuart McGill has to say about low back care, simply because he has a huge frame of reference. He’s worked with an infinite amount of people, and thus has a huge frame of reference.

Contrast this with Johnny Trainer or Internet Warrior, who used a 6-day split routine (with two arm days) to add an inch to his guns. His N=1; it worked for him, but it may not work for everyone else. His frame of reference is quite small.

Whenever you try to take in and assimilate new information, you need to think about the author’s level of credibility, his experience, and the number of people he’s trained to draw his conclusions from. Critical thinking is imperative if you really want to understand any topic.

N=1 (B)

N=1 doesn’t cut it any more. The key is consistent results with a large number of patients, clients or athletes.
I know I used a blog post with this same title in the past, but I think some of the concepts need to be reiterated.

N=1 proves very little. When I say N=1, I'm talking about a sample size of one - this could be you, your cousin Vinny, your sister's boyfriend's aunt, or just about anyone else.

In research, N=1 is a case study. Unfortunately (as we were discussing the other day at I-FAST), a case study can prove damn near anything. And since it's not applied to a larger sample size, the researched modality or method could even be determined to work or not work off the results of the case study alone!

In the real world, the same thing happens. Someone who only coaches one athlete, one client, etc. gets results doing things a certain way and assumes that everyone out there should be doing the same thing. In contrast, when you work with a large number of clients/athletes, all with different backgrounds, goals, injuries, etc., you have a much better perspective on what things work, as well as what doesn't. The goal of programming is always to provide optimal stimulation while attempting to shed away the "fluff."

When applying information to your own training or coaching, do your best to reference the people that are working with (or who have worked with) a wide variety of clients. No two clients are ever the same; two baseball players may have their sport in common, but everything else could be totally different. You should strive to apply the basic biomechanical principles, while simultaneously accounting for their individual tendencies. Doing so will give you the best chance for success, regardless of who it is you're working with.

Last edited by EricT; 11-08-2008 at 06:51 PM..
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Old 11-08-2008, 05:41 PM   #30
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The working class hero article is great ( i first read it at clutch ) It apply's to me and most of my friends and brother.

My work has me doing 75 hrs some weeks then less than 30 other weeks.

Some good stuff as well , EricT
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