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Training discussion on No soreness???, within the Bodybuilding Forum; Aight, Ive never seen a post on this and it may be a stupid question, but im still going to ...


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Old 04-10-2007, 01:47 PM   #1
ForeverANoob
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Default No soreness???

Aight, Ive never seen a post on this and it may be a stupid question, but im still going to ask it.
Does not being sore Correlate with a bad work out?
For the past year or so when i get home from the gym or even the day after I feel no soreness, No madder how much I do. Also what causes this to happen, some one told me that it really didn't madder but i just cant grasp that you can have a good work out and not be sore what so ever.

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Old 04-18-2007, 01:38 PM   #2
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It depends how often you workout. But you might want to step up your workout just to be safe.
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Old 04-19-2007, 08:09 AM   #3
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when was the last time you changed routines? actually... are you progressing still? if so then it doesn't matter, but if not id switch to a 5x5 or something. im sre on of the really knowledgeable people on the forum will comment shortly... ignore bigbenboi.

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Old 04-20-2007, 07:47 AM   #4
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a sore muscle is suffering from micro tears. These muscle tears are caused when you lift weight that puts the muscle unders serious stress. When the tears get repaired, they are bigger and stronger and so a muscle grows....

you can get larger by training a muscles and this muscle recruits more muscle fibres converting from type 1 to 2 and so forth but you have a pre-defines number of fibres so you can reach a limit... then they just grow bigger...

As i have trained through the years i have always suffered from DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) which is the feeling of sore muscles...... and i have always grown......


so speaking from my past, i say that if your not sore - you havent caused hypertophy and so the muscle wont grow....
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Old 04-20-2007, 07:53 AM   #5
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^^ sorry guys, but that simply isnt true. DOMS have not been directly correlated to growth or even strength gains for that matter.

There are many factors that go into Delayed onset muscle soreness, not just microtrama to the muscle cells. There is actually another thread on this here, I'll post the link in a sec.

Suffice to say, just because your sore, doesnt mean you are growing, and vice versa.

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Old 04-20-2007, 08:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain
As i have trained through the years i have always suffered from DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) which is the feeling of sore muscles...... and i have always grown......
As I have trained I have always been caucasion and I have always grown.....

Could it be? Nah....

It's got to do with methods of training and individual adaptations. People who train in an organized progressive way, for instance, may be sore at first but then they adapt and they are not as sore even though they are still progressing and growing. Even though the soreness is a result of microtears it it not the tears that hurt but the by-products of those tears casuing inflammation and pain. Part of recovery is clearing away the by-products of training (no I am not talking about lactic acid here). The only way to make themselves sore would be to add more and more in an EFFORT to be sore...thus ruing their program and overtraining before they reach the culmunation of their adaptive abilities on that program.

People who are always sore are sore simply because they think you have to batter a muscle into the ground every workout in order to grow. Also they most likely workout each muslce or muscle group at a low frequency which of course entails high volume and the lack of adapatation to DOMS. Yes, your body adapts to DOMS if given a chance.

Now I don't need science to tell me that my body adapts to reduce DOMS upon repeated training. My experience tells me it does. But the theory is that there are inflammatory products in the epimysium that are altered upon repeated training thus reducing DOMS.

So basically those experiencing DOMS would have larger amounts T cells (CD3), granulocytes (CD11b), leukaemia inhibitory factor (LIF) and hypoxia-inducible factor 1 (HIF-1) in the epysium and those not would have much lower amounts. This appears to be a separate process from training adaptations without any causal relationship. Sciency enough for you?

PS...I threw in one theory as to the cause of DOMS. The metabolic theory which says the soreness is a result of the by-products of the healing process. There is also the theory that it is the tears themselves. OR, that it is connective tissue stress. The fact is there is no real conclusive evidence as to what causes it and even the tears, being a better alternative than the lactic acid one, is JUST a theory. I can throw in a theory like I did and sound very authoritative. But we don't really even know what causes it let alone can we say it's essential to muscle growth. And since most of us whov'e been in this awhile don't get sore except after a layoff or at the beginining of a radically new routine it's likely just a part of training but not a correlation to the hypertrophy process.

Training can provide a stimulus for progress.

Training can induce Delayed Onset Muscular Soreness (DOMS).

Different training means have different effects on short and long term training effects.

Soreness does not equal progress.

Progress is not reliant upon soreness.

Soreness and progress can coincide, but there is not a causal relationship between them. Sometimes the training means that induce soreness also happen to be the same ones that provide a stimulus for progress in strength at a particular time. Alas, this is not always the case or training would be a simple case of making yourself sore, waiting for the soreness to go away, and then making yourself sore again.

It wouldn't matter what you did so long as it was enough to make you sore. This would also mean you basically were always waiting around for soreness to go away....oh well this has been gone over before. It's a dumb way to train. This is what many people would refer to as a "single factor" way of training.

For further reference:

http://jp.physoc.org/cgi/content/full/556/3/983

Last edited by EricT; 04-20-2007 at 03:57 PM..

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 04-20-2007, 03:03 PM   #7
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Soreness may not be the only indicator of a good workout, but it's not a bad one either I believe.

Lactic acid accumulation is no longer considered a cause of DOMS. Lactic acid disperses fairly rapidly, thus it can't explain pain experienced days after exercise.(1)

It's now generally accepted to be the result of damage to the muscle ultra structure and connective tissue. Eccentric contractions which are known to cause more damage than concentric contractions cause the most severe DOMS which lends to creedence to the micro-tear theory.

The presence of the T cells, and granulocytes Eric mentioned are further indicators of cell damage as these appear because of inflamation brought about by the afore mentioned damage as part of the immune system. This inflamation occurs not only just in the epimysium which surrounds the muscle but throughout the entire muscle.

I'm curious how hypoxia-inducible factor is applicable though. I understand it to be a first responder to allow genetic adaptation to an oxygen-debited cellular ambiance. Likewise, leukaemia inhibitory factor I thought was involved in pregnancy allowing blastocyst implantation.

The resulting cellular inflamation and concomidant imperceptible swelling triggers nerve endings that cause pain. That's why the pain is delayed and why it lasts a few days. The inflamation takes about a day to kick in fully and then a few days to do it's job and abate. That's why anti-inflamatories (which I don't recomend) work so well with this kind of pain.

An interesting new theory supported by some research suggests that the rebuilding process itself by the addition of new reinforcing sarcomeres actually is responsible for the pain. This process causes swelling and puts pressure on nerves.(2)

Thus soreness/DOMS at least seems to be an indicator of muscle damage that we know is at least one precursor for hypertrophy. Obviously from observations we know it's not absolutely neccessary for growth but may be a good indicator when it is present. The other school of thought says that chronic DOMS leads to overtraining and is counterproductive. I personally think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Though not being necessary I believe it's not a bad thing either..

Oh yeah, BTW, whatever you do, don't ice a sore muscle!!

(1) DOMS at Sports Injury Bulletin

(2) Roth, S. (2006, January 23). Why does lactic acid build up in muscles? And why does it cause soreness? ScientificAmerica.com. Retrieved on July 24, 2006.


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Old 04-20-2007, 04:08 PM   #8
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ForeverANoob if you want to grow you just need to progress. If you're less sore it is bacause your body is a great adaptive machine that finds ways of dealing with damage more efficiently. You'll be sore sometimes and not others. It won't matter, you'll still be progressing and growing. There just is no point in worrying about this at all.

I personally don't view it as a good or bad thing but just a thing
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Old 04-21-2007, 05:28 AM   #9
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When I'm hypertrophy training, I never TRY to lift until I'm sore.. And I've grown into a big boy. That being said, feeling a slight level of soreness certainly feels like a pat on the back to me. IME, soreness doesn't have anything to do with gaining mass, but it does keep me mentally motivated.

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Old 04-21-2007, 11:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0311 View Post
When I'm hypertrophy training, I never TRY to lift until I'm sore.. And I've grown into a big boy. That being said, feeling a slight level of soreness certainly feels like a pat on the back to me. IME, soreness doesn't have anything to do with gaining mass, but it does keep me mentally motivated.
Exactly the way I see it. It may not be necessary for growth but it's not a bad thing either..
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