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Pendlay Row and Pull Up Questions...

Training discussion on Pendlay Row and Pull Up Questions..., within the Bodybuilding Forum; I agree with ENORRIS. All this talk about rows but I put pullups right up there with rows any day ...


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Old 01-07-2008, 04:09 PM   #11
EricT
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I agree with ENORRIS. All this talk about rows but I put pullups right up there with rows any day of the week. They are just as improtant to me as rows.

Shit, Cradler, I saw your edit. It's not that bad. It's just that searching youtube for one video with "good form" is an exercise in futility. You'd probably need about 10 vids so you could pick and choose good "form points" from among them.

I think he's craning his head forward as he pulls the bar, Pity. So yeah, he moves his head. He does end with the upper back arched but it is because he seems to be conciously arching the back rather than using the correct movement.

It would also be better to have someone demonstrating good form with ligher weights rather than showing how heavy the can go. Heavy weights and best form are mutually exclusive.

Nobody has perfect form Not me, not you, not anyone. I think that it would be really good for all of us not to assume that the next guy has it all together perfect. If I have someone check my form I would rather them to find something I can improve on rather than tell me how great I was doing.

Hops pointed out one big problem. It's like he is trying to set up for a row but really ends up just pulling the bar up with his arms. Of course it's hard to tell just from a vid but the chest stays down the whole time. Not only does it stay down the whole chest and shoulder area are pulled down and forward and he compensates the heavy weights and lack of ROM by sort of meeting the weights with upper body bending. Hard to explain but just look at what Hops says about the chest not coming up. At the completion of a row the upper torso should be up, the chest spread out, the scapula pinched...he's almost got the opposite of that going on. There is no use doing shit heavy weights when you end up doing basically a different exercise.

Besides what it all end up looking like there are several specific points that lead to all of this.

1. This whole issue of body angle has gotten out of hand. It's like parallel vs. 45 degrees vs. whatever else has become the holy grail of rowing instead of how to friggin row in the first place. If you think a little bit of difference in body angle it going to make your break you than good luck on that.

In the vid, he is so low, and he pulls his body forward and down before each rep to the point there seems to be no tension in the muscles at the beginning. It is hard to muster any type of strength in any endeavor when you start out loosey goosey. Better to have a higher body angle and pull up on the bar initially to get everything tight than to concentrate of parallel (or lower) and have it loose.

2. Shoulders should stay down and tight during rows. The problem here is that he has confused scapular elevation with scapula protraction. He moves his shoulders up (toward the bar) in order to get his scapula to ride up and then down.

Watch closely what he does with his shoulders and scpuala before each rep. He is putting his shoulders in a much less stable postion. Either this is just a misunderstanding or it's the only way he can do it which would point to a disfunction in scapular motion.

Your shoulder shoudn't move around like that. The scapula come forward not up. Look at it like the opposite of retracting them, or pinching them together during the bench press. You move them arpart and forward along the rib cage. You should be able to do this voluntarily and then you can generate a little bit of it by pulling up on the bar to get some tension to protract the scapula. Don't overstretch the muslces. Very bad mojo.

3. The chest does not come down so much that you are hinging the upper back. The upper back was not meant to be a pivot point. The chest comes up at the end due to the motion of the scapula coming together. Not because first you bend the back forward and then bend it backwards.

Yes, some people teach this and if your want to keep doing it I can't stop you. But if you end up with mid or upper back issues just know that those people aren't going to help nurse you back to health

The only difference between rows from the floor and rows not from the floor...well, that is the only difference. One starts from a dead stop on the floor. One has constant tension. Obviously the torso angle changes but good lord this has become a mountain out of mole hill. They both have their advantages and drawback. I am continually disturbed by everyone saying they only do "pendlay" rows.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.
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Old 01-07-2008, 04:12 PM   #12
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i made a quick vid....my first one ever...so excited...


critique please

f photobucket. gimme a minute.


http://s219.photobucket.com/albums/c...t=MOV00070.flv


guess my head does move a few inches...i gotta do this more often.

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Old 01-07-2008, 04:40 PM   #13
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Dude, now that's the advantage of working out at home. Good on ya.

I watched it about 4 times. As I watch it more I may be able to point out more.

From what I can see you definitely have the right idea. I think what is great about it is you are doing a regular barbell row yet you are getting a lot of power and the bar is just flying up. I think it's DYNAMIC and yet, lo and behold, you're not flopping around all over the place to get that.

Your lower back looks a little on the rounded side. Definitely seems like you need more of a tight arch. If that is the normal set of your back then you have a lack of arch and that is something that should be corrected.

You set up with the bar is good as for as the scapula. I could be completely off on this but it looks like the bar comes up a little high on your chest at the end. I know you said that you keep your shoulders back but I wonder if you need to keep them down more. To tell the truth it looks like you may be a bit upper trap dominant which will tend to the row into a thing where your shoulder bunch up so the upper traps can take over. Try pulling and keeping your shoulders down more and see if this doesn't result in the bar coming more to the diaphragm.

I would also like to see a little more emphasis on that tight scapula pinch at the end. See if you can spend a second at the top of each rep really working on tightening it all up and feeling that. It's not a bodybuilding thing..it will reinforce proper movement and progress is all. Try to feel the upper lats engaging at the end.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:36 PM   #14
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the arch "feels" like it's there...but apparently not...just did some mirror work...got the arch there...had to squat down a little more...and pull up on the bar to get it there...if i had longer arms i could nail it easier shoulders came up a bit so i was not perfectly parallel to the floor.....matter?

could the pinch not be there because my hands are too far apart? my feet are about shoulder width apart...and i like to keep the hands outside of my knees otherwise they hit each other.

thanks for the tips man...i'll have to make another vid friday when i hit these again.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitysister
shoulders came up a bit so i was not perfectly parallel to the floor.....matter?
Not in my book.

Yes, grip width is going to effect it but what matters really is the intention. Practice with a lighter weight so you can pause at the top. Best to keep to a neutral grip (for your main rowing) so a bit more than shoulder width sounds about right.

Also see if you can control the negative a bit more.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:08 PM   #16
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werd, will do. thanks man.

give it a "one, one-thousand" on the way down?





sorry to hijack IW
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Old 01-07-2008, 09:18 PM   #17
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Don't appologize. This is what I wanted. I don't have a good way of getting vids up so this will have to do!
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Old 10-04-2010, 02:15 PM   #18
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Default Thanks Eric

This post helps and I am currently a begginer in process of training to be able to do just 1 regular chin or pull up.

I am currently doing negative and jumping chin ups,etc. + some bent dumbell rows...

check this out...


Calisthenics for 3months for an out of shape begginer???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have started a great diet but only doing push ups, negitive pull-ups (because I'm not able to perform a regular pull up yet), simple crunches, non-weighted calf raises and non weighted lunges.

I plan to switch over to much heavier weights for my New Year's resolution.

Should I be cutting now, bulking or just focusing on a good diet and getting stronger via Calisthenics?


Thanks in advance to all for feedback!




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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricT View Post
OK, no one here but me sees the problem in that video?

Hands toward you (suppinated) is chin ups and hands away from you (pronated) is pullups. The width of the grip is self-choice on either. I usually focus on pullups like Pity but I do chin-ups also. You can do both. Chin ups will put your bi's in a more favorable postion. People posit slightly different back effects for the two but in the grand scheme of things I doublt highly it makes a huge difference. Variety is good in any case.

Most people can do more chin-ups because of more bi's being in there and chin ups are a very good bi developer (pullups too). But if you do a lot of chinups you back will grow just like if you do a lot of pullups. Unlike rows it's very difficult to not have some bi's in a pullup no matter what you do but either way, in the long run you get a strong back. Frankly chinup position is uncomfortable for my forearms, elbows, shoulders.... I use chin-ups to get more reps in. Although I've also done pullups and chins separately in the week because of the aforementioned bicep advantage.

I usually choose a neutral slightly wider than shoulder width grip. I've been known to do wider grip for laughs but if you do a lot of pullups wide grip is kinda hard on the elbow. A neutral grip lets you keep your arms tucked a bit more inwards and that is a little easier for the elbows...although if you get tendonitis you may find that using slightly different elbow postions will make a difference to get past it.
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