Go Back   Bodybuilding.net - Bodybuilding Forum > Main Forums > Training


Perodization mystery



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-23-2006, 02:23 AM
arthur arthur is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Question Perodization mystery

Hi,
I have read all the sticky's [esp. cowslip's article on periodization & the ultimate program workout list , but cant understand what to follow.]

My aim is to build strength and power not size.

Could any one tell me how to periodize.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-23-2006, 05:42 AM
EricT EricT is offline
Rank: Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Default

What is your experience level? If you are just beginning then you don't need to periodize at all. There is nothing magical about it that makes it superior to anything else. It's simply a tool that people use when needed. It is not needed for beginners since they can make consistent strength gains with a straight linear progression scheme using traditional overload principals.

At first the only thing that may be necessary before beginning a simple strength training routine is perhaps a period of "hypertrophy training" where you do 8-12 reps for a period of weeks to get used to the exercises and allow the tendons to strengthen, etc. So you can call that periodization since it is meant to get you ready for heavier loads to come and prevent injury...one of the purposes of periodization.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
or
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Last edited by EricT; 10-23-2006 at 06:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-23-2006, 11:05 PM
arthur arthur is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Smile

I am a litlle above the beginners level, but since there are not many reliable guides where I live, I want to know how to periodize at any level.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-24-2006, 07:44 AM
EricT EricT is offline
Rank: Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Default

Hmmm....I think you'd be better off posting your previous training experience and your goals, etc. At just above beginner there is still probably no need to "periodize" your training and you'd benefit from a three day fullbody or 4 day upper/lower split. Neither of which would be periodized in the way that you're thinking. What I advice is you just get in there and lift some weights uing straight progression and see where that gets you before you analyse everything to death before you actually try anything.

This is beginning to sound more like an academic pursuit rather than someone wanting to bodybuild or strength train . IMO, at the early stage of the game the only kind of "cycling" necessary to make good contiunuous progress is simple intensity cycling. This basically means determing you maximum load for a given rep range where you want to be able to increase that load. But instead of trying to "shock" progress by adding 5 or 10 pounds to that you back off of that weight and build back up over a period of 3 to 5 weeks (of six). This is exactly how you would run Rippletoe's starting strength or the Bill Starr Single Factor that a lot of people are doing (also light, medium, and heavy days here) and that is all you need to make a big run on substantail new PR's and some fantastic gains.

Last edited by EricT; 10-24-2006 at 08:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-24-2006, 11:44 PM
arthur arthur is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Cool

Hi, Eric,

As for my training experience I used to do - (mostly bodyweight exercises) -

25 pull ups 20 kilos on my back -- 1 set

25 dips (with my legs supported on a bench) 25 kilos on my legs -- 1 set

65 crunches and leg raises -- 2 sets

and 75 reverse leg raises for my back and hamstrings -- 2 sets

120 situps -- 2 sets (a modified form of squats, mostly practised in India, in which one squats to the floor level and then stands up and continues in the same manner)

As for my goals, I don't want to compete anywhere but I just want to improve my strength and power (irrespective of size).

I had an accident & am taking some rest now. Using the gap to educate myself in weight training also as there no good trainers in my area.

If u please help me I would me greatful.

P.S. also if u know of any resource on the subject, please tell.

Arthur
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-25-2006, 06:39 AM
EricT EricT is offline
Rank: Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Default

OK. I'll try to explain this as clearly as I can. Keep in mind that this is my opinion and there are always may ways to do anything.

What you've done is a good basis to begin a standard strength program. Now a lot of people use the word "periodization' as a buzzword without any regards to what it really is. The idea that any kind of periodization results automatically in more gains is ridiculous. What results in the most gains is whatever allows you the fastest progress at whatever the stage of your training.

Let me put in another way. Look at Westside. Everybody and their mother wants to do Westside. Thinking it's "superior". It uses a form of congugate periodization which for powerlifting purposes probably IS superior to traditional linear schemes. This type of periodization becomes more necessary to get the fastest, safest, and most productive gains in strength for the ADVANCED athletes. Do you think they do it because they just want to complicate things? Hell, no. If they could consistently improve their bench, deadlift, and squat with a simple program involving linear progression (not to be confused with linear periodization) they damn sure would. An absolute beginner going right to doing westside thinking it's superior is just showing their ignorance. The question is what is necessary and superior for you. Many beginnes can squat 2 or 3 times a week and ADD WEIGHT every time! So look at westside or ANY other type of peridization and tell me how that's superior for a BEGINNER.

Another reason people advacate periodization for beginners is simple injury prevention. I think that is very altruistic and I think there is something to be said for preparing the body for heavier weights with a higher rep protocol and/or bodyweight exercises. But the idea that a beginner is going to injure himself on, say 5 reps, as opposed to 8 reps, again, to me shows a misunderstanding of what it means to be a beginner. I'm all for preparing the joints and tendons but some trainers actually say that a beginner must stick to 8-12 reps for up to two years before they're "allowed" to use lower reps. Why? Not only does a beginner lack an appreciable amount of muscle, he lacks the ability to call that muscle into play. He is unable to generate the intensity or "tension" that he later will. The phrase "going heavy" for a beginner has a different meaning than it will later down the road.

All that being said, you'll learn a whole lot more about what YOU need to do by your own experience. How your body responds and recovers. Keep in mind that what your muscles can handle doesn't necessarily reflect what your joints can . So your have to listen to your body and be willing to step back at times. This may mean periods of higher reps or lower volume or complete rest. Even then it doesn't point to any complicated periodization scheme. For the majority of beginners a low volume 3 day a week full body program with a handful of compounds is perfect. Some people will come out of that with some overuse injuries, etc. leadig people to cry OVERTRAINING or periodization. Most of the time it stems from starting too close to max loads and begin overly aggresive in terms of loading and not being willing to step back and take a day off here and there when your body says "whoa!".

In this stage the strength adapations (especially neural) will come very quickly and the ability to generate a lot of intensity will likely outstrip recovery ability. So that will lead to a need for lesser frequency. Upper/Lower split, baby! But still with fairly low volumes.

The more advanced you become the more the need to mix in low intensity work to prevent injury. That is not to say that there is never any need for low intensity work for beginners just that most people get it backwards. People think that beginners are more likely to injur themselves. If they do it is more likely poor form. Getting into heavy weights before they have really "learned" the exercises. It is behavoural in origin not programming, most likely. The more ADVANCED lifter is much more likely to sustain injury due to programming errors than less advanced. I.E. pushing away at high intensity for long periods of time. This is assuming they are not allowing periods of full recovery as you would in a dual factor model.

Last edited by EricT; 10-25-2006 at 06:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-25-2006, 09:41 AM
EricT EricT is offline
Rank: Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Default

So to sum it all up, what I am advocating is simple intensity cycling being the easiest and fastest way to get good strength gains for beginner as far as any kind of "cycling" goes. This is not the same as periodization such as starting at higher rep ranges and working down to lower rep ranges in "cycles" or any other method of combining rep ranges during a training period.

One of the biggest reason people advocate arbitrary periodization schemes, btw, is to "shock" the muscle into growth by introducing different rep ranges. This is further aggravated by famous trainers like Poliquan or Cosgrove arguing as to whether the body adapts to rep ranges first or exercises first and then giving blanket recommendations as to how long as if there is a one size fits all in this. So you see guys writing another cookie cutter program every week using as it's basis a short linear progression scheme without any inkling as to what sort of trainee this is good for. So I'll ask one simple question: Why should someone abitrarily train a certain rep range for 2 or 3 weeks when with proper programming they could progress at that rep range for as much as 12 weeks in some cases and at least 7-8? I'll let you figure that out. And don't tell me it's about mass cuz I guarantee that adding 30 or 40 pounds to your squat at any given rep range is going to be better than adding, ummm, close to nothing at a bunch of other rep ranges. So if PROGRESSION is not built into the idea of periodization then periodization is, imo, just spinning your wheels. So, progression comes FIRST. Not peridization. Peridization, if and when, it's necessary, comes as a way to continue progressing.

The better question to ask, therfore, becomes "How do I progrees?" instead of "How do I periodize".

For specific recommendations while being quite conservative on the matter I'd recommend you first start reading over this:

http://www.bodybuilding.net/training...cific+Training

This is the HST thread. You could look at HST as a short linear progression scheme couple with intensity cycling. Then you throw in the concept of "strategic deconditioning". This supposedly allows you to gain using the initial submaximal loads you get from the cycling. But then you don't progress at any given rep range but move into the next lower. So you get a little bit of strength gain but it's designed to be a "mass only" program. For your purposes you can ignore all that. What I'd recommend is doing the kind of thing that 0311 lays out for say, a 12 rep, and 8 rep cycle but only using this as and easy and organized way to practise proper form and "get ready" for the real strength gains. You'll get a little hypertrophy most likely to boot.

Then, instead of doing the last cycle of HST you basically run this:

http://users.tpg.com.au/ayianni/5x5/5x5ProgrammeOrder.htm

Here is an overview:

Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength Routine:

*note the dip/chin isnt in the original program

Here is a routine from Mark Rippetoe’s book called “Starting Strength”. You can buy the book at www.startingstrength.com. It includes endless useful info that all beginners should learn. But as for the program he suggests, his clients that he gives it to on AVERAGE gain 30-40 pounds in about 6 months or so which is amazing gains.

The program is as follows:

You alternate Workout A and Workout B every other day, 3 times a week. So you could either do Mon, Wed, Fri or Tues, Thurs. and Sat. Depending on what works best for you.

Example:

Week 1:

Monday - Workout A
Wednesday -Workout B
Friday - Workout A

Week 2:

Monday - Workout B
Wednesday - Workout A
Friday - Workout B

Etc.

For the actual workouts read below:

Note: This doesn’t include warm-up sets

**Means this is OPTIONAL**

Workout A
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench Press
1x5 Deadlift
**2x8 Dips (if you cant do these or no assist machine then do Decline Dumbbell Bench Press with your hands Facing each other)

Workout B
3x5 Squat
3x5 Standing military press
3x5 Pendlay or Bent Rows (or power cleans)
**2x8 Chin-ups (recommended mainly if doing the cleans)

Assistance work:

Most people cant get it through there head that compound lifts also work your arms Plenty and always Insist on direct arm work. As quoted by Madcow2, “Don't **** with this. Every bodybuilder seems to have Attention Deficit Disorder and an overwhelming desire to customize everything.” If you are one of these people note that you have the option of doing the dips and chins which give PLENTY of arm work. Abdominal work is fine to do also if needed.

I recommend weighted decline sit-ups and/or Hanging Leg Raises at 2x8-10.

Weight:

As for the weight, make sure that you use the SAME weight throughout the sets. For example if I do the first set if Squats with 200lbs then I do the other 2 sets of squats with 200lbs.

Every week make it a goal to increase each of your lifts by 2.5%. Meaning if I lifted 100lbs for my Bench Week 1 then Week 2 I would try for 102.5lbs. If I did 200lb Squats Week 1 I would try for 205lbs in Week 2. Sometimes you will be able to do more but don’t mess with your form just to lift more.

Warm-up Sets:

Before all your working sets it is best to do a few warm-up sets. Specifically for your first lift. You don’t have to do the whole thing for the other lifts but definitely the first.

What you do is you ramp your weight up to your working sets.

For example:

2x5xbar (sets x reps x weight)
1x5x85
1x3x125
1x2x155

And the working set weight would be 175.

If you are lifting your working sets under 150 I would cut out the 3rd warmup set of 1x5 because it wont be needed.

The Lifts:

**Used references and quotes from Madcow2 and Bodybuilding.com**

Barbell Squat: These should be full range Olympic style squats. Use the full range of your body - that means as low as you can go which for almost everyone is past parallel. If the top of your thighs aren't at least parallel it's for sh!t. If you think this is bad for your knees going low, you and whoever told you that are relying on an old wives tale. Anyone who knows the human body will tell you that below parallel is MUCH safer on the knees whereas parallel and above put all the sheer right on them and doesn’t allow proper transfer of the load to the rest of your body (this is how your body was designed).

Rest a barbell on the upper portion of your back, not your neck. Firmly grip the bar with your hands almost twice your shoulder width apart. Position your feet about shoulder width apart and your toes should be pointing just a little outward with your knees in the same direction. Keep your back as straight as possible and your chin up, bend your knees and slowly lower your hips straight down until your THIGHS ARE AT LEAST PARALLEL TO THE FLOOR. Once you reach the bottom position, press the weight up back to the starting position.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Start reading over all of this:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...nts_thread.htm

If that's not enough to get you started, I don't know what is!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-25-2006, 11:30 AM
EricT EricT is offline
Rank: Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Default

As far as cowslip's article's here is what you need to be concerned with to start:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowslip
Beginners
No matter what your goals are, you need to build a strong base and acclimate yourself to resistance training before you apply more advanced techniques. Your routine should be simple, comprised of almost purely compound movements, plenty of implementation of free weight exercises, and a little more streamlined overall. Periodization is probably not necessary just yet. Consider yourself a beginner for the first several months that you are resistance training properly, or as long as you see gains like this:

Type of Training: Repeated effort method.

Frequency: Train each type of movement or major muscle group 1-3 times per week.

Intensity: 60-70% should be sufficient for both structural and neural adaptations for a beginner.

Volume: 20-40 repetitions is pretty good for each exercise for a beginner. 1-3 exercises per major body part is most likely plenty.

Rest Intervals: 60-120 seconds should be fine; there is no need to kill yourself just yet.

Exercise Selection: Exercise selection needs to change very little if at all. Movements should be virtually all compound and free weight (Assuming you have learned proper form), although a bit of machine work and isolation work is acceptable.

Tempo: Don't concern yourself with tempo. Just lower and raise in a controlled manner.

Training Split: I think a full body routine 2-3 times per week is great, but a bodybuilder split or upper-lower split is perfectly acceptable as well.
This is the general idea and what is open to interpretation is the number of reps (keep it to 24 to 30 range) and the idea of percentage. If you read over what I listed and keep in mind what I've said then I gurantee you there will be no need to keep at the twelve rep range for one or two months and then call yourself "intermediate". What is missing here is intensity cycling, as I've said before, and the realization that training stages, i.e. beginner, intermediate, advanced are not set on some time schedule.

People resist it like the plague thinking that they will lose strength or will be stopping and starting. However, this is the danger of looking at each workout as a be all and end all with the idea of always training at maximum intensity instead of progress as a long term goal. As far as how long you can progress in this way before turning to periodization or anything else...it's totally up to you. The prescription of one to two months and then periodize is ungrounded and the fact is people progress for one or two years doing the kind of thing I've suggested.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-25-2006, 11:53 AM
EricT EricT is offline
Rank: Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Default

Now before I start sounding like this:

Quote:
Physical adapation, including hypertrophy, is clearly a complex neuromuscular response cascade of cellular processes. Progressive remodeling of the body that occurs throughout the duration of training depends on a plethora of factors.

To name one, such as volume, and ignore time under tension, intensity of effort, age, gender, duration of training, type of training, frequency of both training and rest, recovery dependent factors, and health status and regulation, is naieve. To espouse this opinion as factual is unprofessional.
i'm going to go lift some weights....
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-26-2006, 12:42 AM
arthur arthur is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24
Cool

Thanks a ton, Eric.

Wow, that was great info. I understand that for a beginner the schedule you've laid down are good enoug and that not much pdzion is needed.


However as I stated earlier I am educating myself a little.


Keeping in mind that everbody differs and moreover periodization schedules may be diff. for adv., intermediate, and other lifters -

I want to know some of the theory behind periodization and plateaus

- ( for correct understanding of exercise science ) , for eg. IN GENERAL & APPROXIMATELY how long can one train at a heavy/light intensity.

I hope that I am not unnecessarily troubling you.

Arthur

Last edited by arthur; 10-26-2006 at 01:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  Bodybuilding.net - Bodybuilding Forum > Main Forums > Training


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes



 



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 09:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.