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Push/Pull/Legs *lookin for approval*

Training discussion on Push/Pull/Legs *lookin for approval*, within the Bodybuilding Forum; I'd like to start with a little background information. I'm 21, 5'11, 190lbs and I've been training for 5-6 years. ...


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Old 02-13-2007, 09:02 PM   #1
Musclehead24
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Default Push/Pull/Legs *lookin for approval*

I'd like to start with a little background information. I'm 21, 5'11, 190lbs and I've been training for 5-6 years. My goal is to finally bulk up to 225. I want to focus on both strength and size. I did 5x5 before and I didn't like it too much. I'm thinking of using a Push/Pull. I read that the body knows movements, not muscle groups so the push/pull works well for that. Anyways here is the proposed routine. Exercises are not set in stone, just what I have come up with so far.

Day 1 Push
Flat bench 4 sets
Weighted Dips 4 sets
Military Press 4 sets
Close Grip Pres 3 sets

Day 2 Rest

Day 3 Legs
Squat 4 sets
Deadlift 4 sets
Leg Pres 2 sets
Calve Raise 4 sets
Abs

Day 4 Rest

Day 5 Pull
Weighted Pull-Ups 4 sets
Bent Over Row 4 Sets
Close Grip Seated Rows 2 sets
Bicep Curl 3 sets

Day 6 Repeat

Now as for the rep range I'm thinking 5-7. Is there any reason to go over 7? The more reps I do the less weight I can use, so that would be counter-productive to gaining strength and size right? I will also be alternating the Flat Bench with Incline bench. Incline bench hammers the delts more so should I do less shoulder work on the day I do the incline bench?

So what do you guys think? Am I on the right track? Any suggestions are welcome.
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Old 02-13-2007, 09:37 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musclehead24 View Post
Day 1 Push
Flat bench 4 sets
Weighted Dips 4 sets
Military Press 4 sets
Close Grip Pres 3 sets

Day 2 Rest

Day 3 Legs
Squat 4 sets
Deadlift 4 sets
Leg Pres 2 sets
Calve Raise 4 sets
Abs

Day 4 Rest

Day 5 Pull
Weighted Pull-Ups 4 sets
Bent Over Row 4 Sets
Close Grip Seated Rows 2 sets
Bicep Curl 3 sets

Day 6 Repeat

.


Day 1 Push
Flat bench 4 sets
Weighted Dips 4 sets
Military Press 4 sets
Close Grip Pres 3 sets

Day 2 Rest

Day 3 Legs
Squat 4 sets
Deadlift 4 sets
Weighted Pull-Ups 4 sets
Calve Raise 4 sets
Abs

Day 4 Rest

Day 5 Pull
Squat 4 sets
Incline Bench 4 sets
Bent Over Row 4 Sets
Close Grip Seated Rows 2 sets
Bicep Curl 3 sets

Day 6 Rest

Day 7 Rest


What about this? You really should squat more and break up your last "pulling" day so its not a huge shot to your back. You also need your rest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musclehead24 View Post
Now as for the rep range I'm thinking 5-7. Is there any reason to go over 7? The more reps I do the less weight I can use, so that would be counter-productive to gaining strength and size right? I will also be alternating the Flat Bench with Incline bench. Incline bench hammers the delts more so should I do less shoulder work on the day I do the incline bench?

So what do you guys think? Am I on the right track? Any suggestions are welcome.
I have a few questions for you to consider first :

1)Whats the difference between a 5x5 and 4x5-7? Or How is doing a 4x5-7 so much different than a 5x5?

2)How much of a difference to your shoulders will incline make when you're already doing heavy overhead press?

3)Why sacrifice direct shoulder pressing for something that uses shoulders as a secondary muscle, especially when you wanna develop your shoulders?

4)Why sacrifice poundages by switching Flat with Incline bench when bench works deltoids (as well as many other muscles) as a secondary muscle as well?

Basically I just want you to think about what the answers should be and then everything should fall into place. Keep in mind that the more muscles that are involved in a given lift, the easier progression will be. How hard is it to add 5lbs to your squat every week or 5lbs to your bench every week or even 10lbs to deads...sure is alot easier to do than adding 5lbs to barbell curls or 5lbs to triceps extensions every week.

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Old 02-14-2007, 05:48 AM   #3
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[QUOTE=Kane;29979

I have a few questions for you to consider first :

1)Whats the difference between a 5x5 and 4x5-7? Or How is doing a 4x5-7 so much different than a 5x5?

2)How much of a difference to your shoulders will incline make when you're already doing heavy overhead press?

3)Why sacrifice direct shoulder pressing for something that uses shoulders as a secondary muscle, especially when you wanna develop your shoulders?

4)Why sacrifice poundages by switching Flat with Incline bench when bench works deltoids (as well as many other muscles) as a secondary muscle as well?
[/QUOTE]

1. I don't like 5x5 because of the ramping weight over a period of time. Honestly when I did 5x5 I didn't gain much strength and I didn't get any size.

2. The incline bench is on a high angle at my gym and it really hammers my shoulders. If I was to military press after Im sure I'd be a lot weaker for it.

3. The only reason I was thinking of doing incline is becuse I want to get my bench up and I think the weak link is my shoulders.

4. Again, its cause I thought getting strong on the incline bench would help me power through my sticking point on the flat bench. For example if I could get up to doing 200 on incline I know I could do around 240 on flat because its so much easier.
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Old 02-14-2007, 06:59 AM   #4
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I'm thinking of using a Push/Pull. I read that the body knows movements, not muscle groups so the push/pull works well for that.
I'm not really sure what your trying to say here. I dont know what "your body knows" is suppose to mean. And i'll be honest I think this routine is garbage. Especially if your goal is strength gains.

Quote:
Day 1 Push
Flat bench 4 sets
Weighted Dips 4 sets
Military Press 4 sets
Close Grip Pres 3 sets
This is most definately over working your tri's. Every movement there hits the tri's hard, by the time you get to military press you wont be able to push optimal wieghts. your endurance may go up, but your strength and size will not, they may even suffer.

Quote:
Day 3 Legs
Squat 4 sets
Deadlift 4 sets
Leg Pres 2 sets
Calve Raise 4 sets
Abs
I wouldnt squat and deadlift in the same day, you will fry your cns, and your numbers will suffer on both lifts.

Quote:
. I don't like 5x5 because of the ramping weight over a period of time. Honestly when I did 5x5 I didn't gain much strength and I didn't get any size.
not to be an asshole, but if your not ramping up weight over time, how do you expect to gain strength? Are you just gonna put on the amount of weight you want to do eventually, and push till one day you can magically lift it? Doesnt work that way bro.

what 5x5 routine were you using? I would suspect that you were doing something wrong if you didnt gain using a decent 5x5 set up. I've been using 5x5's of different kinds for 9 years, and i've never seen NO gains.

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Old 02-14-2007, 08:02 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by hrdgain81 View Post
I'm not really sure what your trying to say here. I dont know what "your body knows" is suppose to mean. And i'll be honest I think this routine is garbage. Especially if your goal is strength gains.



This is most definately over working your tri's. Every movement there hits the tri's hard, by the time you get to military press you wont be able to push optimal wieghts. your endurance may go up, but your strength and size will not, they may even suffer.



I wouldnt squat and deadlift in the same day, you will fry your cns, and your numbers will suffer on both lifts.



not to be an asshole, but if your not ramping up weight over time, how do you expect to gain strength? Are you just gonna put on the amount of weight you want to do eventually, and push till one day you can magically lift it? Doesnt work that way bro.

what 5x5 routine were you using? I would suspect that you were doing something wrong if you didnt gain using a decent 5x5 set up. I've been using 5x5's of different kinds for 9 years, and i've never seen NO gains.

By movements I mean it makes sense to group exercises where you push together and exercises where you pull together.

I understand my tris are getting hit in all those exercises, but isnt that the point? If my tris and shoulders get used on bench should I not train all those muscles together?

When I said I don't like ramping up the weight I mean i don't like doing 4 sets of lighter weight building up to the 5th and final set which is the only one where Im actually lifting a weight closer to a 5 rep max. I prefer to train using 85-90% of my max and hitting that weight for 3 solid sets of 5-7 reps.

Honestly, I used the intermediate routine. I downloaded madcows spreadsheet where you put in your maxes and it calculates a full 9 weeks for you with every weight mapped out. So I did the routine exactly like I was supposed to. Determined my 5 rep max. Knocked the weight down and ramped the weights up to week 4 where I hit my 5 rep max again. Then week 5-9 I was supposed to surpass my 5 rep max and keep adding weight each week. Didn't happen.

PS. It wasnt my diet cause I eat plenty, take my word for it.

Also, I don't want to focus specifically on strength, but I don't wan to focus on hypertrophy specifically either. So I'm not looking to do a 5x5 or HST. I need a routine that will give me the best of both worlds. If such a routine exists.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:44 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musclehead24 View Post
1. I don't like 5x5 because of the ramping weight over a period of time. Honestly when I did 5x5 I didn't gain much strength and I didn't get any size.

2. The incline bench is on a high angle at my gym and it really hammers my shoulders. If I was to military press after Im sure I'd be a lot weaker for it.

3. The only reason I was thinking of doing incline is becuse I want to get my bench up and I think the weak link is my shoulders.

4. Again, its cause I thought getting strong on the incline bench would help me power through my sticking point on the flat bench. For example if I could get up to doing 200 on incline I know I could do around 240 on flat because its so much easier.

1) 5x5's aren't all a 1x5, most of them have a day where you do a 1x5 and then other days the exercise is a 5x5.

2) Exactly my point. Your overhead press hits the shoulders directly so it makes no sense to sacrifice your pushing power on that because incline bench hits your shoulders. If your shoulders are the weak link....do direct shoulder work.

3) To get your bench up you need to bench...

4) To get past a sticking point on an exercise you need to work on THAT exercises sticking point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musclehead24 View Post
Honestly, I used the intermediate routine. I downloaded madcows spreadsheet where you put in your maxes and it calculates a full 9 weeks for you with every weight mapped out. So I did the routine exactly like I was supposed to. Determined my 5 rep max. Knocked the weight down and ramped the weights up to week 4 where I hit my 5 rep max again. Then week 5-9 I was supposed to surpass my 5 rep max and keep adding weight each week. Didn't happen..
What do you mean didn't happen? I'm guessing you fucked up somewhere along the lines because madcow's program is good.
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Old 02-14-2007, 08:45 AM   #7
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By movements I mean it makes sense to group exercises where you push together and exercises where you pull together.
IMO it doesnt make sense ... see below

Quote:
I understand my tris are getting hit in all those exercises, but isnt that the point? If my tris and shoulders get used on bench should I not train all those muscles together?
Yes, but by your logic here is what will happen ...

Flat bench 4 sets ( 3 sets @ 85-90% of max)
Weighted Dips 4 sets (3 sets @ 85-90% of max)
-Now your tri's are officially spent, if they arent, you werent at 85-90% of max-
Military Press 4 sets (3 sets of shit, because your spent)
Close Grip Pres 3 sets (3 sets of shit, because your spent)

this makes about as much sense as working one body part per day to me ... it will work, provided your juicing. And dont forget that when your doing shitty light sets of military press, your shoulders are missing out on the workout they could have had.

Quote:
I need a routine that will give me the best of both worlds. If such a routine exists.
Well it is possible, perhaps DoggCrapp training would work out well for you, but i really dont know.If I were you, I'd work on strength first, then hypertrophy later. push your strength up with DC or a 5x5, then do an HST cycle.
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