Sorry I was out of town and my monitor was busted on top of it.
That's no excuse! ;)
QUOTE:I'll respond to some of the specific things you said first
QUOTE:A hemotoma is simply a generic term for internal bleeding within a confined space or compartment. It is usually associated with some clotting. If you get hit on the head with a rock the resulting lump is a hemotoma. I don't think they need to open you up for that, necessarily. Trust me, I know all about knots on the head
We're arguing semantics here..my point is that if you're bleeding internally to whatever degree, that ice isn't the answer and doesn't help that particular problem as you stated..
QUOTE:It is not clear at all that ice is a hindrance. It is not clear by the reasearh we have seen that ice is a benefit but that doesn't show it to be a hindrance.
I gotcha here!
You're saying it's not clear whether ice is a hindrance and it's not clear that it's beneficial. Then why cling to it so tenaciously? Shouldn't that statement be part of your post??
No evidence? Come on now..I just posted 6 studies showing NO evidence whatsoever for icing being beneficial, on the contrary some show potential harm.
One study was even actually a study serching every imaginable database trying to find evidence and none could be found..of course these were all a search for scientific evidence.
To be fair I did exclude all anecdotal evidence that you put so much stock in such as, "'Little Joey's Mom ALWAYS uses ice when he sprains his ankle and it REALLY works" and "'BigAssMuscles123" from the "BigMuscle.com" forum always ices and it works really awesome for him." just kidding..sorta!
QUOTE:The literature studies are not saying anything we don't already know which is
that it hasn't been researched thouroughly.
Then why use it or at least why believe in it so religiously?
QUOTE:I'd be interested in the specific studies that show harmful effects.
Those are in my 1st post..
QUOTE: I'll look into changing up the first post to reflect some of the questions. One of the biggest is joint versus muscle injuries. I still do not think it is warranted for me to make broad changes based on the reasons I've already stated. I will look into it for the sake of inclusiveness. I wan't to have info as complete as possible.
Fair enough, especially when your position has no basis other than the fact that that's whats always been done. Am I not right here?
QUOTE:We're getting into a very broad philisophical discussion here. I'll say again that we are not doctors. Having access to info is not the same as having the education and broader understanding necessary to interpret that info.
True to a degree..you're assuming that Dr's keep themselves up-dated which isn't always or even usually the case. Dr's aren't God's or magicians, remember it's a business. They try to see as many patients in as little time to make the most money. Don't buy into the Health CARE providor thing..a lot are too un-caring and frankly too busy to read PubMed articles about ice. Your own health is ultimately up to you. I've questioned my Dr and my familly's Dr's advice often and have had them change their advice quite frequently. Doesn't mean I'm smarter I just have more time to research the particular condition. They can't for every patient, although I do know and see a Dr who does just that before she gives treatment advice.
QUOTE: I'd say that making your own decisions should be based on multiple medical opinions backed up by a general understanding gained from personal research.
Amen..
QUOTE:I certainly don't think people should make medical decisions based on internet searches. Even with pubmed searches the average person is going to have no idea how to properly interpret the data. You have to have a broader understanding of the picture. Like the kind of understanding you'd gain from medical school. No offense to anyone but most people, including myself, are not really qualified to do this. It's getting into territory where people could be MUCH more easily victimized than they could be the not so interested intern. Good research should help you learn what questions to ask. What information is relevant. And how to advocate for your medical care.
I think we're on the same page here.
QUOTE:I'm not sure that you are hearing what I'm saying about the relevancy of studies to a person's medical decisions. Scientific info needs a context to be properly understood and utilyzed. Many long standing medical practices that have little initial clinical backing turn out to be very sound in the long run.
True but only by luck.
QUOTE:What tends to happen is 1. they know it works but they don't know why 2. they notice benefits and then extend the practice, expecting to see these same benefits in a general context.
This was true through the centuries before the scientific method.
No one forms medical procedural protocol in this way anymore. The FDA won't approve a procedure or a medication that HASN"T had epidemiological studies done so it's not possible anymore to develop a proceduer this way. Not since the 19th century anyway.
QUOTE:Ice therapy has been around since the time of Hippocrates. I am not saying that makes it effective. What I am saying is just because something is old and not based on clincial research does not mean it is incorrect.
Agreed, but, once again no procedure can be approved and used anymore unless the FDA approves it and they only go by studies. They absolutely never take simple opinions as to how something works in their journey to allowing a procedure to become practice. Don't you see new procedures develop from ideas like you're saying, then they're tested and studied TO BE SURE they work. Like it or not that's how it works and shouldn't old ways be checked out under suspicion and run tests and studies? So many old standard procedures were kickedThat's what actually is being done in the medical community
QUOTE:What to do about icing? I'm not sure. I still believe in it myself but this is not about my opinion.
Exactly..mine either
QUOTE:Because whether you like doctors or not, when the majority of them favor a certain practice, then, to me, that is more concrete than some studies that don't show one way or another.
I'll refer you once again to the ancient practice of bleeding. How long would you have waited to change your mind when countless studies were showing it didn't help but Dr's still used it???
QUOTE:So I just don't know....
at least you're thinking..;)
QUOTE:I think there is enough to say the following things:
QUOTE:1. Ice therapy is broadly excepted for initial treatment of acute injury.
Addendum: ...in spite of the lack of any evidence whatsoever.
QUOTE:2. There is not very much clinical research showing the long term benefit (or harm) with ice therapy.