Holly crap that's the longest post ever
I'll just start at the beginning...
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Originally Posted by Eric
The fundamental disagreement here is whether it is proper to give out the same program to a "wide range of people". I say no. I say it is irresponsible and I have the backup of the strength and conditioning community at large rather than just the word of one person.
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- With the internet, it's the best place to start without knowing the person's background, what injury or postoral problems they have, and/or being able to see them in action. Sentinel's modifcations assumed he needed to do a Glute-Ham raise for some reason.
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Originally Posted by Eric
The loading IS SS, Jeffo. Without the loading parameters it's a group of exercises, sets and rep ranges. How a program is progressed IS the program. If you say the loading is too aggressive you are saying the program is too aggressive. It doesn't make sense.
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- If you define the progression alone as "the program," then the program is too aggressive, especially on the squat, and should be scrapped. A program is more than just the progression scheme, however, and the exercises, sets and reps are part of it as well. I see nothing wrong with the basic exercise selection, the basic A-B set up, or the basic 3x5. Scrapping the whole thing and chucking in a bunch of new exercises and/or assistance stuff, using a new rep scheme and moving to some kind or double or triple progression right off the bat isn't always necessary. If it's necessary later on, fine. I don't see why it's a good idea to modify things before bare bones has proven ineffective.
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Originally Posted by Eric
I don't understand the insistence of the AB format being the best or desirable over a Mon-Wed-Fri schedule. Rip doesn't say that. He leaves it up to choice. The AB format will overwhelm people quicker than a simple A-B-C format anyway.
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- I never said it was the best or even better than. For a novice, it's no worse than... An A-B-C is also fine, so I see no reason to change it in the beginning.
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Originally Posted by Eric
You are insisting that everyone, for instance, if they have problems to just load slower but for god's sake keep squatting? Why? There are no other things that can be done? Squat variations that are in themselve primal movements? I can design a fantastic beginner's program working around the back squat entirely if someones doesn't want to do it or their back won't take it. And I guarantee they will be strong as hell.
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- I never remember saying this... I can remember saying, "Start a novice here and change it if necessary" several times, but I can't remember saying the above.
The next part of your post assumes I'm some idiot, so I'll just pretend you didn't go there.
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Originally Posted by Eric
But I didn't say scrap the program. I said modify it.
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- And I didn't say not to modify it. I said modify it if necessary.
And I didn't mean to suggest that if you have an issue, some hip extensions, PC activation and scapulae retractions would solve it all the time. These are useful to help the novice IF he's having trouble, but of course you'll have to branch out as things go on.
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Originally Posted by Eric
Anyway, I don't think SS needs to be periodized. May ass well go to an beginner/intermediate program. I would simply, before I washed my hands of SS and just recommend things to those whom I know more about, say that I see no need for people to squat three times a week. They can replace one squat session with either a single leg squat or front squats and a dedicatated PC movement. They can certainly do a three workout program rather than a two and get just as good a result. And that will give more flexiblity. I would suggest that one pressing session a week be replaced with dumbells and a slightly higer rep range at the same volume.
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- I see nothing wrong with this at all. If you need this or want to do it, sounds fine. Where we differ, I think, is that I would tell someone to modify it as such only if they need to or want to. I wouldn't catagorically say, "Don't do the original Starting Strength, do my variation instead," unless I knew that particular person needed that particular variation or modification.
The stuff about inefficiencies was good to read. There are lots of things that can crop up, not just for novices. The beginning is definately a crucial part, in terms of both ballance and training habits. Thanks for including that.
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Originally Posted by Eric
And Jeffo, this is just a discussion to me, anything I say, it's all to advance our disscussion and I WANT to be disagreed with, bro. When everyone one just agrees with everying I say, I don't have to challenge my mindset. So thank you very much for doing what you are doing as I think it is invaluble. And we don't completely disagree with what important  |
- Well that was nice to say. And yeah, we seem to agree on the important stuff.
Cheers,
Jeff