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Originally Posted by Kane
1)Core strengthening is emphasized as an overall way to increase your lifts...so everyone does soo much core that it actually impacts their training in a bad way (ie. fatigue, soreness, etc)
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The problem I think is giving people a general statement: "You need core work". Then definining core work in some rigid way: " Core work is this and that, but not this other thing or that". And then giving them a list of exercises to choose from with almost no guidance as to why you would need a certain exercise and when and just what is really needed for one person as opposed to another when it comes to this.
I say in that case, I'd rather see people do nothing but the basics plus some "ab" work
I agree compelely and have stated quite recently that beginners especially are being given way too many choices with no knowledge as to how to make them.
And wasn't that you and me that discussed this idea of beginners being and intermediates being told "never to modify" and then suddenly one day they wake up strong enough to be given a list of assistance and accessories, lol. But they have hardly learned anything about how and when to use what and when it comes to "core" work they don't even know that that means.
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Originally Posted by Kane
2)Alot of people starting out are not very strong and some are even a bit heavier...this may not seem like a problem but (sorry anuj but I'm not trying to pick on you) when you say do some GHR's and they can't physically do them it is a big problem. Because they're in the program they usually stick with it and use a horrid form or use their arms to help them...which IMO defeats the purpose of using GHR's. If you can do them properly then they are a huge asset.
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Sure but why single out GHR's. They're actually easier and more forgiving, especially on a machine, than all the standard slow lifts. Because exercises are in a program PERIOD people stick with them an use horrid form and your last sentence applies to everything. You know a bad habit people have is to flex their elbows during deads...sort of a way to use their arms.
But you seem to think people are not allowed to use arms on GHR's. Why? Assistance is OK. It's not assistance that makes it wrong usually it's a lack of glute control so the the torso bends. But on a machine if you can simply move the knee rest away from the knees until you can do a rep...then move it closer to progress, you should be fine.
With an externally loaded weight then there is a weight that a person should be able to do it well. With bodyweight type stuff it's harder to change the weight without changing the character of the exercise. Some imperfection is to be expected at first. It's just a different thing.
But ANY exericise is specific and will require a period of adjustment and strenghening. I don't care if you can deadlift 400, you may still find that you can't do a ghetto GHR unassisted. Maybe compare it to pullups. When are people allowed to work on an exercise, provided certain standards are met, so that they can improve strength on THAT exercise (which should of course extend to other things in different ways). If you expect everybody to be able to do bodyweight things perfectly right off the bat without any assistance or something than bodywieight things are out, cause it ain't gonna happen.
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Originally Posted by Kane
3)Like was said earlier, these loading cycles or rapid progression are coming at an expense of form and safety. People loading a bar and doing quarter squats while their back quivers like a scared animal. Sure they're squatting more and more weight, but the cost is too high. Same goes for alot of other exercises, namely bench (bouncing weight off the chest) and deadlifts (heavily arched back or a heavily mechanical movement)
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Exactly. To me the ASSUMPTION is that they are not doing these things you describe when we say "thus and thus is good for everyone". But more often than not, that is what is going on, I'll bet ya.
I think a really huge big deal is being made about exercises and programs for beginners in the first place. We have on one hand "Go to the ultimate program resource sticky and pick a program" which is too cavelier and on the other "This is the best place for everyone to start" which is too rigid. The answer is in the middle.
For beginners you have this period of time where strength is basically availible almost for free. You take someone whose been "desigining" their own splits or what not and you simple put him on ANY organized training routine where he has to adhere to a schedule rather than some haphazard approach and you have a period of fantastic strength gains and then stagnation. Of course, of course, there are better and worse ways. You pick some basic stuff and you progress on it with a volume that is appropriate for the frequency and you are mostly there.
But then you have the question of "training age". Well I for one don't have any single training age. How many people you think come on a board with a bench press age of 3 and everything else all over the place? At least if you want to think of it in these simple terms.
I understand completlely about this phenomenom. I've fallen into it. I am sitting here surrounded by books...some of them a lot more "accessible" than others. Rip has written these books that people can sink there teeth into and really understand these simple concept and it gives a very concrete and easy to follow picture and a way of PROGRAMMING instead of a list of workouts. Most people have never really had that and it is easy to get all swept up in it. Look, he's not the only one.
Beyond Brawn became a bible for many and really, just as good as SS in many ways. Hell, Arnold's Encyclopedia comes to mind
. Dinosaur training used to be the stuff man. Hey, everything has something to offer. There is no bible. And as far as books, there is much more advanced reading to be had when someone is ready for it.