Thread: Flat feet issue
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Old 08-15-2008, 11:36 AM
EricT EricT is offline
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Generalizations? LOL, I haven't even read all of Andrew's post and I had to stop at that. You want to get into specifics I'll be happy to go to town with the OP but there is NOTHING general about anything I said. On the contrary your advice was entirely general and has nothing whatsoever to do with the issues at hand.

The fact that you don't understand why what I said was not general I don't care about. What I do care about is the fact that you are expressing nothing more than your personal preference and prejudices as specific advice and then trying to accuse ME of generalizations.

Everything I said has to DO with training, Andrew. How can it not be. The problem is you think EVERY problem that can arise with our body is congenital. Or at least you seem to. I think you are out of your depth when it comes to kinematics and kineseology and you probably should do some more research before you get holier than thou anymore.

When it comes to issues at the feet you have to know where the issues arive from before you can just start spouting stuff about "path of least resistance" whatever in the world that means. Are we talking about fallen arches? Are we talking congenital flat feet? In any case the health of the foot is related to the relationships of mobility and stability (in a relative sense) from the ground up.

There also could be overactive, tight muscles, say the gastrocs and other weak muscles...maybe the glutes.

There could be problems all the way up to the neck related to someones flat feet. Telling a person with flat feet to purposely train in a way that limits their range of motion at the ankles and hips is not going to help them with their feet but only accacerbate the issue.

Form follows function? Form is "shape". So what does that have to do with flat feet here? I still can't believe the whole generalization comment, lol. So Mark Phillipi's athleticism has something to do with how someone should deal with flat feet? I'm lost. Your need to make powerlifting into something more than what it is is counterproductive. In fact is is not my intention to make olympic lifting into something else. What I am talking about are mobility versus stability and how that might relate to feet and knee issues. Just to make a GENERAL comment about such and such squat being hard on the knees is just an "everyone knows" dogmatic statement. All squatting can be bad for the knees depending on so many factors you need a book. I have a few I could recommend....

In any case when it comes to these issues I will recommend mobility before stability. A strong posterior chain is a must have for anyone. A stable lower back is a must have. But isolate those factors and you have simply opened the way to worse knee, or ankle, or foot problems.

Of course you don't get any pressure on the knees in a powerlifting squat. There is no deep knee bend to speak of. One could argue, if one wanted, that there is no "squat" without a deep knee bend. What does powerlfiting have to do with? Powerlifting. You think powerlifters who are specifically concerned with furthering themselves in their sport care about all the philisophical things like "form and function" then ask a few. They care about numbers on their three lifts. Period. As I've said before, most people take training way too personally and it is more about what they LIKE when it comes to giving advice.

The idea that an olympic lifter has an "average" flexibility....

Flexiblility is the ability of a muscle to elongate. So I'd say that the average olympic lifter probably has an above average flexibility. But these issues are related to mobility. Flexibility plays into that but mobility is simple the movement in a joint or group of joints. And THAT is related, again, to stability. So anybody that looks at an olympic lifter and can't see that they possess mobility and stability that is well ABOVE average doesn't know much about mobility and stability. It isn't about how many pounds on the bar you can move when is comes to these issues. That is powerlifting. By the same token I am only using olympic lifting as an example from which cues can be taken...not as a lifestyle statement.

You mentioned a bunch of names. No doubt you would say, based on your opinions, that these guys are all "stronger" than the late, great Paul Anderson. And that is defintely a matter of perpspective. In terms of "strength, mobility, and stability" he is far and above all of those guys. That would be the model I would point to when it comes to knees turning in and feet being flat.

You do realize that mobility can be trained for. Most NOBODY has the natural ankle mobility to do a deep olympic squat. In fact if they had that kind of almost hypermobility to start with they would almost certainly lack stability. I never used to have the ankle and hip mobility to do a deep squat. I certainly have it now. We are not doomed to a lack of mobility, lol, especially given the fact that there is not need for everyone to gain the type of mobility that we see in most olympic lifters.

Since he is "in the now" let's take Michael Phelps as an example. He is hyperflexible pretty much in his entire body. Now he obviously has the stability and core endurance to maintain body position in a swimming stance but that is with NO LOAD on the body. It may be logical to assume he posseses all sorts of mobility with which to do a deep squat given the instuction but I would put him under a heavy bar becasue he most certainly would lack the stability. Why is that related and specific to the subject at hand? Because it COMES DOWN TO mobility/stability.

So based on your advice, what does it have to do with flat feet. Well, you have taken a chicken first egg second standpoint. And I mean in terms of your specific statement from your first post and your ideas about the posterior chain, and the statement about pronation and internally rotating knees. I’ll quote Cressey to illustrate what this will lead too:

“rounded shoulders, forward head posture, exaggerated kyphosis, anterior pelvic tilt, excessive lordosis, internally rotated femurs, and externally rotated, flat feet.”

Yep. Kind of weird that you shoulders and neck even have something to do with you knees and feet. But it’s true.

So, OTIS, this comes down to the question I mentioned before. Is this structural or functional. Have you always had this problem and thus it is because of the shape of the foot? That would mean orthotics are the answer. If this is something that came about later, hower, it is probably functional.

From a functional standpoint, you need to determine if you have weakness in a decelerator elsewhere that's forcing the extra pronation in order to compensation. The external rotators of the hip (especially the gluteus maximus) and quadriceps are notable possibilities. Don't forget the dorsiflexors, either.

I think a good thing for you to read would be the “Neanderthal No More” series of articles by Eric Cressey and Mike Robertson. http://www.t-nation.com/readArticle.do?id=459379 That might help with assessing some of these problems.

You probably should see a specialist of course and try to determine any structural problems.

I think that is SPECIFIC enough, for now

This part I have to address specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC
So your generalization that this has to do with the type of squatting is wrong. It is the type of TRAINING that causes the differences in performance.
HUh? I'm talking about the flat feet and internally rotated femurs and what that has to do with squatting. Bro, sorry, but you're the only one being general here.
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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Last edited by EricT; 08-16-2008 at 10:25 AM. Reason: misspellings
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