Andrew i agree that the supplement industry is fucked up, and your right that most (if not all) supplements we can do without. We can see gains, losses or whatever without the use of this powder or that pill. But the part your forgetting is that its fun to alter yourself, and its fun to experiment with these things. As long as you do it safely, I see no reason why you shouldn't have a little fun seeing what any one of the supplements I listed can do for you.

there is no substitute for good training/diet/rest ... but some of these things are cheap, and proven to work, so why not play a little?

Sam, I would think ALCAR indirectly has an effect on fat loss simply because it makes cardio easier from a breathing stand point. It really made a difference to me, plus its like 7 bucks for over a months worth, so it wont break the bank if you decide to try it.

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I don't do this for my family, my friends, women, accolades, pride, or ego. I do it for me and no one else, its just part of who I am.