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EricT · 12-05-2009, 08:57 AM

I would say for average people without a lot of "help", if they could maintain at about 12% or around there, then they could continue gaining muscle in a realistic way..all things being equal. Putting on MORE fat than that is not and advantage to gaining muscle.

Ranges above 12 to 15% for a male are actually detrimental to muscle gain. As well as are lower ranges like below 10.

Just by virtue of having gained, say 10 pounds of muscle while putting on TOO much fat....many people will just be stuck with too much fat and will have tough time burning that off without extreme shit and that "ripped" thing...will never really come.

People both underestimate the "help" that pros get in terms of bulking and then cutting and they overestimate the amount of fat that pros put on off-season.

Staying at 4% bodyfat and gaining a lot of mass? Ain't gonna happen. That is an unhealthy fat range for a male anyway.

Bart, just because you went to another board and got handed answers that you WANTED to hear, doesn't mean the other board was giving you better advice. ANY lazy, inexperienced ______ can list a bunch of supplements and claim any number of things about them. It takes no time, though, or special knowledge except what they themselves have been led to believe.

Not to put down Talo's advice on suppments AT ALL, but you can go to any board in the universe that has a "fitness" section and get a list of supplements, none of which will make a difference in the long run, as Ross said.

But I concur with some fish oil and a multi. And it sounds like you already use protein powders, but I personally count all significant protein sources as FOOD.

Creatine won't hurt you and will help your high end a bit but I doubt, again, there is any long term benefit.