Thread: Lifting slowly
View Single Post
 
Old 02-20-2010, 08:17 AM
EricT EricT is offline
Rank: Heavyweight
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,314
Default

Brutikus anybody can pull out individual evidences to support any kind of position.

However, this thread had nothing to do with eccentrics per se and was about super slow lifting..both concentric and eccentric.

Let's talk about some of the statements you made since you mentioned 'strength' and that is my area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brut
- your muscle are strongest at 'mid-contraction'
Mid-contraction. Really? Your muscles are? I'm sure that means something when it comes to curls, which is undoubtedly what you are thinking about, but I'd love for you to illustrate how the idea of mid-contraction ties into STRENGTH training like deadlifts, squats, etc...

When am I at 'mid-contraction' on deadlifts? I'd like to know. Now right at the knees and a bit above that region I am at the sticking region. That would be about the mid point in the bar path. Is that mid contraction? Which muscle is at mid-contraction? Maybe I can do eccentrics for that muscle or something.

Because that is when I am at a mechanical disadvantage. The sticking region. I am at my strongest point in the deadlift just at lockout. The top.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brut
- You muscles are weakest at the beginning and end of contraction
Again with contractions. It's very confusing. You see, a lot of us are under the impression that STRENGTH training (you mentioned strength and eccentrics) is about movements not 'contractions'.

I'm pretty sure that on many movements I am able to exert the MOST force either at the beginning or the end.

Now, I don't know about others but I can certainly bench press more on a top only partial. A LOT more. Is that the end of the contraction?

Now when we use acommoddating resistance, such as resistance bands, the accommodating part is that the bands simply increase in tension and thus resistance the more you stretch them, thus at the END of the movement the resistance imparted by the band is 'heavier'. Now, since I am at my weakest at the 'end of the contraction' then this accomoddating resistance thing must be a figment of my imagination since it is founded on the premise that it gives me more when I am at my strongest so as to keep the tension levels more constant.

The bottom or beginning of the contraction. Well, you know I can deadlift anything I can get off the floor with a sumo deadlift. That is because with that position off the floor is the toughest part, where I am at the least mechanical advantage. So I guess it's true on that one if you call the floor the 'beginning of the contraction'.

But on conventional deads that relationship does not hold true. I can get lots of stuff off the ground but that is not a guarantee I can lock it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brut
Using eccentric contractions (going slow on the way down, or away from the middle) will help to strengthen the muscle not only at mid contraction, but at the start and finish


- tempos commenly used, especially by professional body builders
The fact that a certain group commonly uses a method or practice is by no means proof of the effectiveness of that method nor is it justification for it.

In this case however, you seem need more research. As bodybuilders are not very concerned with 'strengthening' muscles per se and most of their 'common' practices tend to limit force production during a session. And force production is job one when looking to get hella strong as opposed to just hella big.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brut
1,1,3 - up on a 1 count, hold for a 1 count, go down on a 3
- 2,2,4 - up on a 2 count, hold for a 2 count, go down on a 4
That's all wrong. It's much more hardcore to go 4, 3, 5, and 5,4, 3.

Or maybe that was my high school locker combo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brut
THIS BUILDS STRENGTH
Really. And the pump/burn too?

Nah, I submit, Britikus, that you don't know much about strength training.

The mid-contraction thing is simply a confusion about how the muscles work and especially when it is a simple lever system like an arm curl.

The thing is that it takes a whole lot of muscle force to rotate or even hold still a given weight (resistance). The muscles actually have to exert MORE force than the resistance they are attempting to move. For instance, take a 10lb dumbell which translates to around 44 Newtons and try to hold it mid-way in a curl so that you have elbow flexion of around 90 degrees.

It can take so much more force exerted just to hold the dumbbell at that point, up to maybe 700 Newtons or 157 lbs....amazing.

Our muscles are at a mechanical disadvantage in that way. They must exert more force than whatever resistance we give them. That is because the their lines of action runs very close to the axes of rotation. So the force arms are very small. Basically the resistances can produce more torque than they can.

For certain muscles, like the biceps/elbow system, where they can reach a 90 degree angle of pull, the force arms are maximized and thus their torque producing capability is maximized at that point...hence the myth of 'mid-contraction' which has nothing to do with contraction and everything to do with the mechanics.

That's the idea...I may have gotten some of the particulars wrong as I am not a biomechanics expert.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
or
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Last edited by EricT; 02-21-2010 at 09:51 AM. Reason: fixed a billion typos
Reply With Quote