no i havent used s1+ yet, this will be my first time. You guys got me convinced, this will be my year end bulker. I will do my best to get lean and stay lean from now and through that cycle.

I will use daves clean bulking 101, and pack on as much mass as I can. My only real concerns with this cycle will be lethargy, and joint health. I have a hard time keeping my joints working right on just m1t/4ad. I gain strength so quick they cant keep up.

and thats with Glucosomine and condroiten.

Same here hrdgain. I hate it when the joints can't keep up with the strength gains and I am constantly taking joint supps.

What do you guys recommend for joints? I just started taking Glucosamine, MSM, Chondroitin 180C - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...s=hpc&v=glance

But I am having problems with my shoulders and I am getting heavier with the weights. Im looking forward to doing a cycle once Im ready. keep up the hard work

I remember that dude, it looks like he swallowed a whole watermelon! Plus, the poor guy has some serious health problems to boot!

Naw Apoc, I won't lose my abs looking for that type of size gain. I just want to be in single digit bodyfat around 205-210. Anything higher than that and blood pressure starts to become an issue.

I don't know about you guys, but have you ever seen any Pro or top BB'r in person? These guys sweat and breath hard just getting out of a chair! This guys are monsters though....sorry I strayed from the topic!

I forgot to mention this hrdgain, Matt from CNW came out with his Omega joint support formula and it kicks azz! My wife has been using it for 2weeks now and she doesn't have to use Bextra anymore! The formula is made up of chondroitan, msm, and a new evolved essential fatty acid by the name of Celedrin. She was actually able to cut back on alot of her pain medications also. The way things are going she may not have to use them anymore because of this supp!

It's also getting rave reviews over at the AM boards, it's helping some bros out with their joint problems. So, check it out if you have a chance, your joints will thank you!

nice i'll have to check that out.

to tell you the truth i dont think the g/c works that well, but it does help a little bit.

yeah I have been wanting to try that new joint mixture.

U know hardgain u missed something. You said u get joint problems even on M1T/4AD combo, but hell that was the strongest legal combo out there until the ban. S1+ isnt as strong.

As for Greg Kovacs, I heard right now he is working with Chad Nicholas, and he was able to put some definition on that mofos body. You know he weigh around friggin 350 and he was trying to hit 400, what a dumbass. The guy is so strong, they had 250 pound dumbbells specially made for him. :D

your right apoc, I guess i shouldnt use that as a comparison. putting on 9lbs in six weeks your gonna grow faster then your joints can handle.

and what makes it worse is all the weapons training i've been doing lately. kobudo is a bitch on the joints.