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Scintillating

So an obese person who wants to remake their body can pretty much do the same thing as an in shape, muscular, low bf person who wants to cut, exept that the obese guy will lose fat faster than the cutter? That's not what you meant is it?

I'm still not done chewing the fat (that's my A level humour).

The undercurrent here is that there are many who believe that food works like steroids. The fact is, you measure the anabolic hormones of a "fat" person, it is lower, not higher. The more fat you put on the lesser your ability to deposit muscle, for all sorts of reason. Likewise, you get too thin the same thing happens. Most people are aware of the latter but stubbornly cling to the myth of the former.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

I agree with what others have posted about terminology. hell, for year I thought I was "cutting", when infact i was simply dieting and doing cardio for fatloss. I've never been lean enough to cut in my life.

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I don't do this for my family, my friends, women, accolades, pride, or ego. I do it for me and no one else, its just part of who I am.

Obese people have a lot more to lose vs. someone already in great shape.. In my case, if I want to lose 20 lbs of fat and I'm only at 18%, I'm looking for about a pound a week to preserve muscle/strength. I also don't want to do any running, ect in favor of power walking or 10 minutes of HIIT on the bike or something. Obese people, in my opinion, if they have an atmosphere such as on that show, "the biggest loser", they lose A LOT of weight, FAST!

I don't think they possibly could do anything other than change their diet and move around throughout the day.. Most cannot walk. But going from 10,000 cals a day to 6,000 and moving around vs. sitting on the couch all day will lead to dramatic results whereas an athlete looking to lose weight will have a tougher time.

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I agree. Course I probably should be using the word obese too much as I didn't mean "morbidly obese" necessarily. I am not necessarily talking about someone who can barely walk. There are many more mobile individuals who will still lose fat very quickly but that don't need to be doing much more that what IK and you alluded to.

What I trying to get at here, besides what I said above is the idea that someone with significant fat to burn should be occupied with putting on muscle. As IK said, and as I agree, maintaining would be a plus but the main point would be spurring on fat loss and for initial strength gains, movement, etc.

So let me point out that when we are talking about overweight individuals it is in regards to a general unfit population not in regards to "our" population. What is overweight to us can actuall be very healthy in general. And I think you need to start out with those general definitions before a later shift can be made to a new parameter.

But the message that most people get in the general "fitness media" is the John Basedow message that they will or should put on slabs of muscle and that will ramp up their metabolism. I.E. the muscle will burn the fat. This is bullshit. You will not put on so much muscle in a realistic timeframe that the muscle itself will have a big impact if your are "significantly overweight". It's the EPOC effect that will be most important, as I'm sure IK will agree. And this goes to people's expectations, so I don't think it is minor. It's the kind of thing that causes people to go in hog-wild doing everything under the sun and too much of it only to burn out a month later when their expectations aren't met and they are over-reaching.

Still waiting on responses to this http://www.bodybuilding.net/47191-9-post.html

BEER.

Well this has been a good read. I don't have much to add to the definitions mentioned above but I would like to add to what Eric said about people think fat being some magical anabolic...

I had this attitude when I tried my hand at bulking this fall. I didn't really pay any attention to my macros, I just kept my protein as hig has I could and ate any and every kind of carb out there. I *did* gain mass... quite a bit of it....about 17lbs in ~3months which I was quite proud of. However, now all of a sudden I want to try to get "cut" for the beach so of course I use the cutting diet. (I think it qualifies as cutting and not fat loss as I wasnt' *that* fat lol and I was in pretty good shape as far as my lifting went.

Now that I've been cutting since about Dec 10 I realize that I had put on alot of extra fat during my bulk. My mass gain was probably more like 10-12lbs muscle and the rest fat. So, I can see why people think the fat is the magic anabolic...if you eat like a maniac without paying attention to your macros you will gain mass faster...but its not all muscle.

Now that I've been through one of each cycle properly I realize that a good clean bulk is probably the best solution for me and most everyone. It reduces the amount of effort it will take to get down to "cut" if you want to for some reason and pretty much eliminates the need for the on-going cycling effect. If you're continually cycling, you will slow your overall growth.

So, if you are at a reasonable body fat % then bulk cleanly. It will payoff in the end. However, to get to that reasonable body fat level, some may have to use the "fat loss" as mentioned above.

Thats all I have to say. Feel free to argue any point I made. I'm not *that* experienced but I've tried a few different things and have seen some results.

IronWorker

Eric, in response to the bulking and cutting cycles. I believe that this is simply a bodybuilding carry over. It is nessisary for a competitive bodybuilder to keep a cyclical schedule simply because of shows and what not. I think that other people see this, and try to mirror it, even though its not optimal for those who dont need to keep that type of schedule.

You dont see powerlifters, or football players doing this, because they train functionally. It just happens that people look to bodybuilders because of the major focus with them is "the look". So they try to mimic them to get the same look.