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Darkhorse · #1 05-08-2008, 01:32 AM

Seperating the P + F and P + C BULLSHIT cont....

From Lyle Macdonald

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Yeah, that's my feeling, it's at best a food control thing. If you can only eat carbs for a few meals/day and are limited to lwo GI, that limits how many carbs you can eat/day. Same with fat. Which limits calories. When you enforce eating a ton of protein at each meal (and first, which tends to blunt appetite), people eat even less. But they *feel* like they are eating a ton. Durrr.....

One of the DC fanatics came on the board a while back a nd mentioned that DC instituted the no carbs after X pm cutoff so that you don't get dillholes playing the "I'm bulking, I need a gallon of ice cream at bedtime" game. yeah, great. But at least be honest abut why you're doing it. Or tell people to get some freaking discipline.

You don't have to make up bogus physiology to get people to do this kind of stuff IMO

Lyle

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Frankly, I think food combining voodoo crap based on a piss-poor understanding of basic human physiology. The original version was based on a mistaken understanding of human digestino, the new version on a 10 year old model of calorie storage in fat cells.

I think Lemmon is a monkey spanker.

17 lbs in one month of muscle? I call bullshit. Even with steroids, you couldn't get that much.

I think about the only advantage of the whole thing might be that it keeps people from turning into fat pigs when they bulk. When you make it so taht people can't eat starches at every meal or fat at every meal, they will tend to eat less than if you alow all foods at all meals. This is especially true for people who are bad at controlling their calories or who don't want to track portions. Food combining probably acts as a food intake control strategy.

The Doggcrapp strategy of disalowing carbs at night seems to serve taht main goal, keeps fat asses from eating a pint of ice cream at bedtime and wondering why they got fat.

Failing all of that, try it both ways for a couple of months, see what happens.

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a. don't waste your time arguing with morons
b. of course they are still at a surplus, no shit. but they are not at nearly the surplus that they think
c. dietary fat doesn't need insulin to affect fat cell metabolism; neither does eating fat stimulate it's own oxidation. Not to menion that the time course of insulin and dietary fat hitting the bloodstream are totally different, not to mention a bunch of other stuff.

Here, you want to **** with them point out that, ingested dietary fat really hits the fat cells around the 2-3 hours mark. Just about the time that you're raising insulin with the next P+C meal

Lyle

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Old version: some gibberish about how carbs digest in alkaline and protein/fat in an acid environment. Hence eating both can't possibly digest properly. This is based on a totally incorrect understanding of digestive physiology. Carb digestion begins in the mouth via amylase (aka salviary ptalin) which is inactivated in the gut when the acid hits it. Hence, the food combining twits concluded carbs require basic environment. Which is true, in the mouth. But not in the gut. The stomach is never basic, it's either acidic or really freaking acidic. and carbs digest just fine which is why, as Aaron pointed out, you don't shit yourself silly every time you eat a meal of carbs/protein or whatver mixture they don't agree with. But they ran from the basic premise and reached a totally screwed up conclusion. They also seem to have trouble explaining stuff like milk and beans, both of which are digested (and yes, we produce gas from beans, this is because specific sugars called raffinose and stachyose are not digested by humans but we still get digestible carbs and protein from them) by humans. Their usual explanation is some gibberish about how those are naturally occurring foods and that's ok, but magically the body can tell when you eat a piece of meat and an apple or whatever. Reminds me of the aspartame tards who argue taht synthetic aspartame is evil but the naturally occurring stuff in fruits isn't bcause of a magical (but undiscovered) compound in fruits that prevents the formation of formaldehyde.

Tangent: some food combiners are adamant that one should eat fruit separate from everythign else. I have never found any suggestion of their rationale for this.

New version, based on a model where insulin is the primary player in fat storage. Premise being that insulin stores fat, hence avoid insulin and fat in the bloodstream at the same time and you won't get fat. So you separate carb and fat in meals. You can eat protein/carb or protein/fat.

Problems with this model:

1. Protein raises insulin
2. It takes only miniscule amounts of insulin to affect fat cell metabolism. Even fasting levels will inhibit lipolysis by 50% and it takes only a very small increase to affect things beyond that.
3. Insulin isn't even nearly the entirety of the picture. Well, it was 10+ years ago, but it's not now. Two studies have shown that fat ingestion by itself affects fat cell metabolism with no increase in insulin: you get an inhibition of HSL (just like insulin does) and other effects. The most likely player is a molecule called acylation stimulation protein (ASP, aka complement 3 protein or some crap, I wish scientists would come up with one name for this stuff). ASP is complex but has been described for at least 2 decades as the most potent stimulus for triglyceride synthesis in fat cells. ASP activates glucose uptake into the cell, activates triglyceride synthesis, increasing insulin release from the pancreas. It appears to be activated by a protein on the surface of the chylomicron (the packaged up dietary triglyceride). you're reading that right: fat stimulates it's own storage without a need for insulin.

Tangential note: the big focus in fat storage has always been on LPL (lipoprotien lipase) which is activated by insulin (it's probably also activated by ASP). It was always thought that LPL was the key player in fat storage except that it's not. Mice bred without LPL but with ASP get fat just fine, mice bred without ASP without LPL do not. LPL's primarily role is to break fatty acids out of the chylomicron, ASP is the key player in fat storage.

Now, one study suggested that insulin + ASP activation lead to greater fatty acid trapping than either and they tested this by using either a high fat or high carb meal or a mix of the two. A huge problem I have with the study, the mixed meal was simply the high fat + high carb meal put together; that is it had twice the calories (ok, it had the sum of the other meals, it may not have been double exactly) of either individual meal. It's like saying that you either ate 50 grams of fat, 125 grams of carbs or a meal of 50 grams of fat and 125 grams of carbs; and the third meal made you store more fat. Well no kidding, it was double the calories. Of course you'd expect more fat storage under those conditions.

To control for this, they should have made the meals isocaloric and tested either high-fat, high-carb or a mixture with the caloric content of each meal identical (i.e. the third meal would have half as much fat and carbs).

Of course, as I've mentioned, I think this is probably the reason that food combining 'works', it forces people to control calories. Most of the really bad stuff we eat tends to be high sugar and high fat. If you make it so that people can only eat one or the other at a given meal, guess what happens? They eat less. As well, if you look at a 6 meal/day plan, if you can only eat fat at three meals, and only eat concentrated starches at 3 meals, and you're not controlling calories/food intake, odds are you will end up eating less than if you can eat fat/starches at all meals.

A final note, John Berardi, who really popularized teh above idea made an initially huge deal out of not eating digestible carbs with protein/fat meals. IN a more recent article, he now allows low gi/unrefined carbs like potatoes and beans and stuff. So his 'food combining/massive eating plan' now allows meals that contain protein/veggies/unrefined carbs/fat. So cutting edge. It makes me wonder what kinds of carbs he thought people were eating before that.

Lyle

spanky06 · #2 08-09-2008, 01:48 AM

Dr X,

I'm preparing for my first natural bodybuilding contest at a Musclemania event. It's not my first show ever but might as well be since I last competed in 1993. So because I want to be ripped I started early...16 weeks out. Really the reason is I had substantial amount of fat around my abs. So right now I'm a full 10 weeks out. I orginally weighed 222lbs at 16 weeks out. Six weeks later I'm at 210lbs. I feel great and strong. I'm still lifting heavy and actually I've increased my poundages for the same reps. I've definitely lost fat but my problem area will be my lower abs. At this point I'm just starting to see the lines of my abs. Every other body part is starting to get veiny and tight. Below is my diet plan. Please let me know what you think of it and am I on the right track to getting ripped.

1st meal
5 egg whites w/turkey or lean beef
1 whey protein shake with half banana

Workout includes 45 minutes of cardio

2nd meal
5 egg whites w/turkey or lean beef
1 whey protein shake with half banana

3rd meal
1 whey protein shake w/peanut butter
1 1/2 cup of oatmeal

4th meal
1 chicken breast or fillet of fish (tilipia)
broccoli

5th meal
1 chicken breast or fillet of fish (tilipia)
1 yam

6th meal
1 1 whey protein shake w/peanut butter
1 1/2 cup of oatmeal

Keep in mind I'm doing 45 minutes of cardio a day. I really want to get ripped for this show. Thanks for your thoughts. If anyone else would like to comment please do. Thanks gang.

TALO · #3 08-09-2008, 05:13 AM

Cutting out the whey may help you. Atleast cut it down, it looks like your taking in more fluid than food.

spanky06 · #4 08-09-2008, 05:56 PM

Thanks Talo. I'll give that a try. What do you think about the solids I'm taking in and the amount of cardio?

EricT · #5 11-15-2008, 05:21 PM

Carbs and Fat: Friends After All? (Leigh Peele's Blog)

fakii · #6 08-10-2009, 05:53 AM

thanks buddy .... nice information..... it'll help me out alot ..nice post keep up the good work. GOD bless U

EricT · #7 03-04-2010, 09:03 AM

True but a nonsequitur.

cmatthew4 · #8 04-06-2010, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricT

True but a nonsequitur.

haha she doesnt squirt? lol!

EricT · #9 04-07-2010, 11:51 AM

The post I was replying to is no longer there but nonsequitur means "it does not follow". In other words the post was random.

Tmno · #10 05-28-2011, 06:33 PM

i like what you said about cheating, yeah you should give yourself a time to breath and cheat to keep a levelled "mental sanity"

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