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IronKitten 07-26-2007 01:44 PM

I was just wanting some opinions and/or preferences between the stubborn fat protocol and HIIT.

For those that have done both types, do you like one over the other? Have you noticed any significant differences in results in one method or the other?

I've utilized HIIT for a while now, love it (and hate it at the same time :biglaugh:) but I'm thinking about trying some SFP sessions in my next show prep.

EDIT: The Stubborn Fat Protocol is NOT something to be utilized by those that are simply trying to lose some BF. It's geard towards those people that are at or below their body's natural setpoint (so when you're already at a low level of BF and you're hitting fat loss plateaus). Also, it's not a program that can be carried out for a long period of time like HIIT can. So please be cautious of attempting this program if you are not at an advanced level of conditioning already.

ChinPieceDave667 07-26-2007 02:19 PM

never heard of SFP? What is it.

IronKitten 07-26-2007 02:33 PM


Originally Posted by ChinPieceDave667 (Post 38539)
never heard of SFP? What is it.

It's from Lyle McDonald. I've never tried it, which is why I'm curious about it. It's much longer sessions, which I'm not excited about. But I'm thinking I may as well give it a go and see what happens.


Getting rid of stubborn bodyfat - by Lyle McDonald

Without going into the brutally long and complicated mental computations that led me to this (and I'm still working on the overall scheme), here's my current thoughts on how to approach it.

First and foremost, this is one of the places where morning/pre-breakfast cardio is probably crucially important.

An hour or two before cardio, take 200 mg caffeine with 1-3 grams of L-tyrosine (NO ephedrine).

There are two segments to the cardio:

- The first segment is for mobilization, to get those stubborn fatty acids out of the fat cell.
- The second segment is the oxidation part, to burn them off in the muscle.

For the first segment of the cardio, use a machine that you don't normally use. So if you normally do the treadmill, do the first segment on the stairmaster or bike or something. Just make it different.

First segment:
warmup: 3-5 minutes
go hard: 5-10 minutes. I mean hard, as hard as you can stand for the entire time. This will NOT be fun on lowered blood glucose. I've considered putting intervals here but haven't found the data I need to make up my mind. If you do intervals, go something like 5X1' all out with a 1' break (10' total intervals)

Rest 5', just sit on your butt, drink water, try not to puke.

Go to your normal cardio machine. Do at least 30 minutes at moderate/high moderate intensity (below lactate threshold but decent intensity). I'd say 45' maximum here but I'm still making up my mind and looking at data.

Go home, and wait and hour before having a small protein meal (25-50 grams or so). No dietary fat. 2-3 hours later, go back to normal diet eating. Your daily calories shouldn't be any different than they were already, they are just distributed differently, you only have 100-200 immediately after cardio, and then the rest afterwards.

I'd do that maybe 3 days per week to start, and see what happens.

Why this works

To get stubborn fat mobilized, you have to overcome a fairly severe resistance in terms of both blood flow and lipolysis, this requires very high concentrations of catecholamines (adrenaline/noradrenaline). Sadly, jacking up levels of catecholamines (necessary for mobilization) limits burning in the muscle which is why you follow the high intensity with low intensity.

Basically, you jack up levels to get the fat mobilized, and then let them fall so that the fatty acid can be burned in the muscle.

I have a study showing that Ephedrine before intense activity lowers the catecholamine response, that's the reason for avoiding it. Studies also show a lower than normal catecholamine response as people adapt to a given type of cardio; doing a different machine will result in a higher catecholamine response than you'd other wise get.

The bigger problem with stubborn fat has to do with:

- Blood flow to the fat cells: which is typically very low, odds are your butt is cold to the touch compared to other areas of your body
- It's harder to mobilize: both because of impaired blood flow, and because of adrenoceptor issues.

Oral yohimbe (0.2 mg/kg) can be effective when used over the long term. Don't take it within 3-4 hours of taking ephedrine, and start with a half-dose to assess tolerance (some people get really freaky responses from it). IF you can find pharmaceutical yohimbine, it's far far better than the herbal version (and most of the herbal versions are crap, the only one I trust is Twinlab Yohimbe Fuel).

Taking the yohimbe with caffeine prior to morning cardio does seem to help with very stubborn fat.

hrdgain81 07-27-2007 05:46 AM

Two things:

1. its from Lyle so its gonna work, the guy is good, period. I've ran the ud2 before and as grueling as it is, it works. I put a lot of faith in the guy.

2. if you do use the sfp, please log your progress here, I would be very interested to see the outcome.

3. (I know i said 2 things) Just from reading that it makes sense, but its gonna be a pain in the ass. I dont function well in the morning so this may not be an option for me, but if can handle it more power to ya IK.

EricT 07-27-2007 06:15 AM

Realize though that it's for the last bit of "stubborn" fat. It ain't for just losing fat in general. Lyle's the only guy who really puts "stubborn" fat into a category all it's own. So your are dealing really with one guy's theories. It'll probably work but I would be really leary of breaking down muscle doing that pre-breakfast without any protein or whatever.

_Wolf_ 07-27-2007 06:30 AM

^^ some excellent points as usual E. i know i dont know a lot about diet and nutrition (but im learning) but i am against anything in the morning bereft of protein+carbs. i am also ignorant of what "stubborn fat" truly means because to me its a very very relative term which can be interpretted in any way.

hrdgain81 07-27-2007 06:30 AM

In this instance, I think that this would be applicable for IK. just from her avitar pics it looks like the only thing she has left to lose is a small amount of stubborn fat. That being the case, this protocol should only be used for a short time, and perhaps that will keep the muscle loss to a minimum. Correct me if i'm wrong though IK. Plus he mentions keeping your caloric intake staying the same durring this time period, so how much muscle could you lose in 2hrs really? Especially since you will resume normal eating after that, and that should pull you out of any catabolism. Just a thought.

hrdgain81 07-27-2007 06:35 AM


Originally Posted by Sentinel (Post 38563)
^^ some excellent points as usual E. i know i dont know a lot about diet and nutrition (but im learning) but i am against anything in the morning bereft of protein+carbs. i am also ignorant of what "stubborn fat" truly means because to me its a very very relative term which can be interpretted in any way.

Anuj, doing fasted cardio in the am is a very good way to lose fat quickly. Your looking at nutrition from a "building" stand point, in which case you are correct. but from a "cutting" stand point it isnt always true. What he means by stubborn fat is this, When you start a cutting regiment, things will go relatively smoothly for a certain amount of time (different for everyone). but once you approach your bodys set point (the amount of fat that you comfortably carry) your body will slow the fatloss to combat going below the set point. You've prob heard people say "the last 5lbs" is the hardest, think of that, then go a step beyond, if your set point is about 12%, think of how much fighting your body will do if your trying to get to 7 or 8%. thats whats ment by stubborn fat.

EricT 07-27-2007 06:44 AM

Yeah, for IK it could be very applicable. I was inserting a caveat for others (beginners looking to lose fat and/or build muslce) who may misunderstand the situation (i think that is what Anuj was alluding also). The only thing I would wonder, IK, is if you ever tried fasted HIIT in the first place. I assume probably you have. But if not I would think that jumping from comparing HIIT to this protocol wouldn't be as "fair" as comparing this protocol with just fasted HIIT without the additional steady state (maybe with the sups?) to this protocol. That may not make sense really just wondering.

hrdgain81 07-27-2007 06:50 AM

^^ good point, i wasnt thinking about noobs lookin at this thread, sometimes i forget.

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