lol, well said!

this is why i love this site! one simple question can be broadened and expanded on to inculde much bigger concepts simply because of the knowledge and experience level of the people here.
i am really glad i answered you the way i did because i just learned a whole shitload here. first is that i still dont know jack squat about training, lol.
seriously though, when i look back in my journals i am seeing my self applying the SDT concepts instinctively when i felt that my form was becoming a concern due to the weight on the bar. but i've never really applied them consciously. I believe that it isnt just the influence of Rip at work here but also my lack of progress using bbing style workouts for so long that i think i rejected any notion of the concepts of double or triple progression as being an effective part of planning my program.

its funny how this discussion came along at a time when i really need this info. i've hit a wall again in my training and all that's running through my head the last 2 weeks is oh god not ANOTHER back off and ramp up, and honestly i am filled with doubts as to weather this is the way i should be doing things at all. plus my joints are getting stiff as hell these last 2 or 3 weeks. i KNEW i needed to do something different but just had no idea what to do (or possibly have too many vague ideas what to do, but nothing concrete, i dunno) and i dont feel i need to move on to intermediate type stuff yet.

i have been reading at the GUS site but man, there is a LOT to read and understand so its going slowly, when i have the time and the brain power to assimilate it, somewhat, lol.

oh and i dont blame you for not wanting to write all that info in the link again. but i do need to READ it again, maybe about 10 times.

anyway, a great discussion, much to think about, TY!!

Absolutely, I totally get that and I understand exactly how you could feel that way especially since bodybuilding training can be both complicated AND unproductive. You follow those blind alleys long enough and there is almost a self protective backlash against anything that may seem less simple than it should be even though in reality it is dirt simple.

Of course most of these type of discussions are going to come back to Starting Strength because that is such a huge influence both there in the past couple years and in all the forums. But I recognized that people have their own reasons for doing things and we don't have to blame everything on Rip. Just most of them, lol.

But I'm not saying that even SDT is the "best" thing to do and I actually DON'T think a beginner should program all the lifts that way because there are the needs of the program AND there are the needs of the lift. You have to balance them somehow. But it's nothing very complicated or over-thought.

I take SDT and try to make it a thing that people can use in some kind of one step to another way. But that doesn't mean I think it's the only thing to do.

Actually it's kind of the opposite. People put a lot more thought into rationalizing how their particular cookie cutter is so very magnificent then you actually have to to just train, lol.

Yeah I know. And that's important. People don't think that affects your progress. It is one of the most important things there is. How can you expect to make any headway when you dread the very process of it and what's more when that process has you going backwards rather than forward a good bit of the time? The more I thought about it the more ludicrous it sounded in my head.

As far as all that "when I'm intermediate" stuff I think it's just another mental trap. It's kind of silly to think that someone is supposed to keep training like a beginner until the bar decides he's an intermediate at which time he is supposed to keep training like an intermediate for even longer.

Do you learn to walk by just keeping on crawling until the day you can crawl an arbitrary distance and are allowed to walk?

You know I have a newsletter and in the last one I wrote about doubles. Basically saying why they are good and why do them instead of singles or doubles, etc..and I said that if you are ready for lifting heavier but still don't feel you're at the level where you can use singles they are a great way to get started. Then I explained briefly how to do that.

Looking at the stats there are a handful of people opening that letter dozens of times. Just probably over that doubles part. And it's not because of doubles per se I can guarantee you. It's because it's like they suddenly think "I'm allowed to do that? Holy shit, I don't have to do the same old thing?". A big light bulb and epiphany moment by just saying..you can 1. lift heavier and 2. have fun doing it.

I think that one thing we have to be on guard for is what people present as 'fact'. Because usually what they present as fact is assumption. Assumptions are fine but they have to be REASONABLE assumptions. But you do not build a whole training philosophy on assumptions because they WILL fail no matter how reasonable they are. They only fit the narrow circumstances you are using them for.

its weird how all the poisoning influence of the bbing mags and athletes is still affecting me! i'd say its 95% gone, some shit still lingers though, ugh! but like isa di before it didnt hit me until i stepped back from it and took a look at what i as doing and why.

totally agree there. whats good for the deadlift isnt neccessarily good for the bench, or pullup, etc,etc. when i think about it, even right now, i train all 3 of those lifts in a different way. more and more i keep thinking about Bruce Lee and his "using no way as way, having no style as style" philosophy. having the tools and techniques at hand but never becoming so rigid in their aplication that you limit your chances of success. it definitely applies here too. everywhere actually. as i said before the funny thing is i HAVE been doing some SDT, just not consciously and in a planned manner and not in all the lifts that really could use some application of it.

that is exactly what i've been thinking the last 2 weeks or so...how is THIS productive for me??? also at my age i have got to accept the notion that i need more variations in my training, the joints just arent able to handle 10 straight weeks of the same heavy stress day in and and day out. i made a pretty good run of progress BUT it seems now i have to back track so much that it'll be aother 10 weeks just to get back to where i was 2 weeks ago. i dont like that idea t all!

i almost deleted that phrase but i decided to leave it in because i knew you'd have a great answer and i wanted to read it. i do agree with you, its just a label put on something. this is another thing that's been going through my mind lately. like, how come i must go from 3 sets to 5 sets when i become an intermediate? why cant i start by adding just one set and doing 4? i know its a simplification of a bigger concept but still i just didnt get it! it seemed like the same old arbitrary numbers shit that the bbing mags used to spew. cookie cutter crap.

yup, just like your replies here have had me thinking about a LOT more than just what we talked about.

you cant build much of anything on assumptions.

excellent discussion!

Training for strength and training for mass is different. I don't really understand the question tbh.

Some people have more than one goal and while training for strength and training for mass is different the parameters do overlap. You do have to grow eventually to increase your absolute strength (despite what hacks like Pavel would like you to believe).

If you want to separate the two into extreme camps such as bodybuilding high volume bodypart splits on one end and training for absolute strength on the other then yeah, they are not the same :)