Go Back   Bodybuilding.net - Bodybuilding Forum > Main Forums > Nutrition


Question



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:21 AM
Outlawmurray Outlawmurray is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 49
Default Question

Realistically, how much protein can the body take on (in grams) in one hit, without wasting it, whether it be from food or from supplements. Can you take on 30g at a time, or will you just end up pissing out 10g? Also how long after you take this maximum on can you take it again, again without waste.
I'm sure it depends on weight etc. so just for the record i'm 6'1 and 195lbs.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:32 AM
ChinPieceDave667's Avatar
ChinPieceDave667 ChinPieceDave667 is offline
Rank: Middleweight
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 7th layer.. or DC.
Posts: 2,329
Default

this is a HUGE debate among lifters and nutritionist. from a nutritional/scientific stand point/from what I've read. it does depend on the type of training and if you are training at all. It also depends on when you take it. if you take 50 grams of protein in the middle of the day or on non- workout days. I can guarantee you that it will not get used up as much when you were to take the same amount and drink it right before or after a training session.
__________________
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow a Mystery, Today is a Gift, Thats why it's called the Present.

MONSTER: My Strength Endurance Journal, Part 2: The Strength Endurance Journal Returns <--NEW

BULKING: My 5X5 Journal

CUTTING: My CKD Max-OT Journal, My HST Cutting Journal


Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:33 AM
ChinPieceDave667's Avatar
ChinPieceDave667 ChinPieceDave667 is offline
Rank: Middleweight
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 7th layer.. or DC.
Posts: 2,329
Default

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psycho...gy/Protein.htm
some studies.

Quote:
WHAT IS PROTEIN?
Protein is made up of essential and non - essential amino acids. A chain of amino acids is called a polypeptide. The human body can make the non - essential amino acids, whereas the essential amino acids must be ingested through food. Protein is found in food, and is most highly concentrated in animal sources than other sources. It is digested by the human body, and broken down into its amino acid components, beginning in the stomach. An enzyme disassembles the protein polypeptide chains into smaller components, which are broken down again and again in order to facilitate the digestion process. Once the protein has been broken down sufficiently, it can be absorbed and stored for the body to use. Protein can be inefficiently used as energy by converting amino acids to glucose, but it is primarily used by the body to build and repair tissues. If too much protein is taken in, the excess may be stored as fat.

INTAKE OF PROTEIN
How much protein should an individual eat? Are protein supplements necessary? Much hype exists about protein and its importance. "Mix one part fact with several parts ignorance; season with advertising, sprinkle on a need for that all-important competitive edge, and you have a recipe for protein supplements" (6). This statement generally reflects what physicians and well educated authorities on diet and sports medicine believe. Most Americans consume a 12% protein diet and most body builders a 25% to 30% protein diet (6.) Many athletes commonly believe that they must take in more protein than the recommended intake. The health industry recognizes this, and thus a plethora of fitness magazines and health food stores boast advertisements for protein supplements and amino acids. These advertising campaigns suggest that protein supplements and amino acids are perhaps a legal, healthy, substitute for anabolic steroids. The fact is that gargantuan amounts of protein intake is not going make a world class athlete; training builds endurance and muscle, not protein alone. The average sedentary adult needs to consume only 30 to 60 grams of dietary protein per day to replace amino acids used by the body (4.) It is true that as an athlete exercises, more amino acids and protein are used by the body than a sedentary person, thus the need for dietary protein may increase. However, one must keep in mind that protein contains calories, and any excess calories that are not burned are stored as fat, and protein is an inefficient source of energy for the body to use.

PROTEIN AND ATHLETES
What evidence is there to support or disprove claims that high intake levels of protein help build muscle mass and better athletes? Muscles are made mostly of protein, so logically one would think that the more protein in the diet, the more muscle one should have. Certain types of exercise, weight lifting for example, do stimulate muscle growth. So, a combination of weight training and large amounts (the more, the better) should be beneficial, right? Not exactly. The most recent indications are that dietary protein in excess of the current recommended dietary allowance (0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day) is likely needed for optimal muscle growth (5.) "The current recommended dietary allowance doesn't seem to be enough for elite athletes who are training every day, who are growing, or who are training especially hard right before an event" (6.) However, the benefit appears to plateau at intakes well below the levels typically consumed by many athletes. Thus, for best results, a diet high in protein is beneficial for muscle growth, but only to an extent. Once a certain intake level is reached, any additional protein taken in will not help build muscle mass any more.

A study done by Fern et. al (1991) showed that greater gains in body mass occur over four weeks of heavy weight training when young men consumed 3.3 versus 1.3 grams if protein per kilogram of body mass. In addition a study done by Meredith et al. (1992) found that a daily dietary supplement containing 23 grams of protein combined with weight training can enhance muscle mass gains relative to similar subjects who trained with out the supplement. Both of the studies show support for the belief that increased protein in the diet can help increase muscle mass, but it should be noted that these effects were found with a combination of intake and training. These two studies further indicated that a protein intake of about 1.7 - 1.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day, when combined with weight training will enhance muscle development compared with similar training with an intake of 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day (5.) However, it is important to note that there is little good evidence that the very high protein intakes (more than 2 grams per kilogram of body weight per day) typically consumed by strength athletes are beneficial. Moreover, it is possible to obtain this quantity of protein without special supplementation assuming a mixed diet containing sufficient energy is consumed.

Endurance athletes differ from strength training athletes because they do not develop the muscle mass that weight training athletes do. Endurance athletes, nevertheless can benefit from protein intakes over the recommended dietary allowance because the exercise they participate in does still alter protein metabolism, in a different way. In weight training glucose is used for energy and because weight training is intense, fat and protein cannot be use for energy production. The protein intake increase for strength athletes is to supplement and help tissue and muscle rebuilding, after the exercise. Because endurance athletes exercise for long periods of time, (2 - 5 hours at a time) they can use protein as a source of 5% - 10% of their total energy expended. This protein needs to be replaced as well as protein that is used for tissue repair, thus an elevated level of intake can be beneficial. The same applies to endurance athletes as strength training athletes -- a point exists at which any more protein taken in is no longer beneficial.

CONSEQUENCES OF EXCESS PROTEIN INTAKE
A common misconception about excess protein in the diet is that it can cause kidney damage; excess protein cannot cause kidney damage even though it does make the kidneys work harder. When protein is metabolized nitrogen is a by - product; the kidneys work to remove the extra nitrogen from the body. As of yet, no studies have found an high rate of kidney problems in strength athletes as would be expected if too much protein caused kidney damage. Also, Zaragoza et al. (1987) studied animals with very high protein intakes for more than half their life span and found no serious adverse effects.

High intake levels of protein can lead to increased water loss because the body excretes water to dispose of urea, a substance formed in the breakdown of protein. Water loss coupled with the fact that most athletes loose a great amount of water through sweat, can lead to dehydration if fluid intake is not properly monitored. An excess of purified protein can, however, take calcium away from bones, thus predisposing one for osteoporosis.

PROTEIN SUPPLEMENTS
Although protein is seldom used as an energy source, and despite the fact that the average American diet far exceeds the recommended daily allowance for protein, many athletes still believe that supplementary protein can enhance athletic performance. Athletes do need additional calories for energy, but too much protein intake will be stored as fat. Most protein supplements provide a lot of calories as well as protein. A balanced diet can easily provide enough protein for an athlete, and protein supplements are not necessary. Again, the average athlete cannot be turned into a champion simply by altering their diet or specific nutrient intakes. The most important determinant of athletic prowess is something over which we exert no control: our genes. Most experts rank physical training next; good nutrition comes in third (3.) Of special importance to remember is the fact that enough protein to meet needs can be obtained from a balanced diet and the fact that a protein intake of more than the recommended dietary allowance can only be potentially beneficial (to an extent) for elite athletes.

REFERENCES
(1) Aronson, Virginia. (1989). Protein and Miscellaneous Ergogenic Aids. Physician and Sports Medicine, 14, 199-202.

(2) Clark, Nancy. (1991). How To Pack a Meatless Diet Full of Nutrients. Physician and Sports Medicine, 19, 31-34.

(3) Henderson, Doug. Nutrition and the Athlete. FDA Consumer, 21, 18-21.

(4) Houston, Michael. (1992) Protein and Amino Acid Needs of Athletes. Nutrition Today, 27, 36-38.

(5) Lemon, Peter. (1996). Is Increased Dietary Protein Necessary or Beneficial for Individuals with a Physically Active Lifestyle? Nutrition Reviews, 54, S169-S173.

(6) McCarthy, Paul. (1989). How Much Protein Do Athletes Really Need? Physician and Sports Medecine, 17, 173-175.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-15-2005, 11:36 AM
ChinPieceDave667's Avatar
ChinPieceDave667 ChinPieceDave667 is offline
Rank: Middleweight
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 7th layer.. or DC.
Posts: 2,329
Default

http://www.afpafitness.com/articles/ProteinRequie.htm
more info

Quote:




PO Box 214 Ship Bottom, NJ 08008
609-978-7583


Human Protein Requirements

Experts are still not entirely sure how much protein we need, and estimates have often been revised in recent years. The national and international organizations which advise on nutrient requirements suggest standards which are calculated to meet or exceed the requirements of practically everyone, explicitly taking into account individual variation, and so these levels have a wide in-built safety margin. In 1985 the World Health Organization (WHO) published revised figures as follows:(1)

The WHO protein figures translate into 56g of protein a day for a (75kg) man, and 48g for a (64kg) woman. The recommendations of the UK Department of Health and Social Security (DHSS) are slightly higher, at about 68g a day for sedentary or moderately active men, and 54g a day for women (2). Both these official recommendations suggest that eating 10% of our daily energy as protein will provide an adequate amount. The NACNE report (3)proposes a protein intake of 11%. National and international recommendations for protein intake are based on animal sources of protein such as meat, cow's milk and eggs. Plant proteins may be less digestible because of intrinsic differences in the nature of the protein and the presence of other factors such as fibre, which may reduce protein digestibility by as much as 10%. Nevertheless, dietary studies show the adequacy of plant foods, as sole sources of protein (see Combining Proteins below), as does the experience of healthy vegans of all ages.

The main protein foods in a vegan diet are the pulses (peas, beans and lentils), nuts, seeds and grains, all of which are relatively energy dense. As the average protein level in pulses is 27% of calories; in nuts and seeds 13%; and in grains 12%, it is easy to see that plant foods can supply the recommended amount of protein as long as the energy requirements are met.

People are not Rats

Tradition has it that plant proteins are of a poorer quality than animal proteins, because the essential amino acids are present in proportions which may not be ideal for human requirements. In the early years of research into protein quality this belief derived from experiments with laboratory rats, when it became clear that amino acid supplementation of a plant source of protein improved its biological value to the point where it would support the growth of weaning rats. The parameters of these experiments were set in such a way that differences in the quality of plant and animal proteins were maximised; the second major problem is that rats and humans have different nutritional requirements (4).

The weanling rat grows, relatively, at a much faster rate than the human infant and therefore requires a more concentrated source of nutrients, including protein. A comparison with human milk makes the difference quite clear; protein comprises only 7% of the calorie content of breast milk, while rat milk contains 20% protein. If weanling rats were fed soley on human milk, they would not thrive. Using the same logic as was applied in the early experiments, it could be argued from this that breast milk is also inadequate for human infants!

Some early studies further demonstrated the differences in nutritional requirements between rats and humans. In 1955 (5) an experiment with three male volunteers showed that the amino acid cystine is able to substitute for 80-89% of the body's requirement for another essential amino acid, methionine, whereas in rats the substitution value is only 17%.

Although the terms 'first-class' and 'second-class' proteins are no longer used, in some circles the belief persists that a vegan diet, containing only plant proteins, may be inadequate. This is because cereals, nuts and seeds contain less of the amino acid lysine, while being high in methionine; and pulses are rich in lysine but contain less methionine. This has given rise to concern that the amino acid present in lower amounts in each food will limit the availability to the body of the others, and the suggestion has been made (6), and adopted quite widely - even among vegans - that complementary protein foods, such as beans and grains, should be eaten at each meal in order to enhance amino acid availability. Vegetarians are also sometimes advised to ensure that they complement vegetable proteins with dairy foods. Are these precautions necessary?

Protein combining may reduce the amount of protein required to keep the body in positive protein balance (7), but several human studies have indicated that this is certainly not always the case. For example, over a 60-day period seven human subjects were fed diets in which protein was derived solely either from beans, corn and refined wheat; beans, rice and refined wheat; or a combination of the plant foods with the addition of cow's milk (8). All subjects remained in positive nitrogen balance (a measure of the adequacy of dietary protein), and there were no significant differences in nitrogen balance between the subjects eating only plant foods and those whose diet was supplemented with milk.

Another study looked at the nutritive value of a plant-based diet in which wheat provided 76% of the protein (9). The aim was to determine whether this regime could be improved by adding other sources of plant protein - such as pinto beans, rice and peanut butter. The diets were entirely vegan, containing only 46g of protein, and were fed to 12 young men over a 60 day period, during which they continued their normal daily activities. The researchers found that all subjects remained in nitrogen balance, and that replacement of 20% of the wheat protein with beans, rice or peanut butter did not result in significant changes in the levels of essential amino acids in the bloodstream.

Even more startling perhaps were the findings of a 59-day investigation with six male subjects who consumed diets in which virtually the sole source of protein was rice (10). At two protein levels (36g and 48g per day) the diets comprised rice as the sol source of protein, or regimes where 15 and 30% of the rice protein was replaced with chicken. The partial replacement of rice with chicken protein did not significantly affect the nitrogen balance of the volunteers (in contrast to earlier experiments with rats which showed that a rice diet did not sustain normal growth). In this human study, even on the low-protein diet rice as the sole source provided between 2 and 4.5 times the WHO-recommended amounts of all essential amino acids, except lysine - of which it supplied 1.5 times the suggested level.
On the higher protein diet, rice alone provided between two and six times the essential amino acid levels suggested by the WHO, and all subjects were in positive nitrogen balance.

When cornmeal was fed as virtually the sole source of protein to ten male volunteers during a 100-day study it was found that at an intake of 6g of nitrogen per day (approx. 36g protein) not all the subjects were in positive nitrogen balance (11). Yet all the essential amino acids were eaten in amounts which met or exceeded standard requirements, with the exception of tryptophan - of which 91% was provided. These results suggest that on a corn protein diet, non specific nitrogen is the first limiting factor, not lack of esssential amino acids.

The 1988 position paper of the American Dietetic Association emphasized that, because amino acids obtained from food can combine with amino acids made in the body it is not necessary to combine protein foods at each meal. Adequate amounts of amino acids will be obtained if a varied vegan diet - containing unrefined grains, legumes, seeds, nuts and vegetables - is eaten on a daily basis.(12)

These and other similar experiments show clearly that diets based solely on plant sources of protein can be quite adequate and supply the recommended amounts of all essential amino acids for adults, even when a single plant food, such as rice, is virtually the sole source of protein. The American Dietetic Association emphasizes that protein combining at each meal is unnecessary, as long as a range of protein rich foods is eaten during the day.

References

1.Food and Agriculture Organization/ World Health Organization/ United Nations University (1985). 'Energy and protein requirements', WHO Technical Report Series 724. Geneva, WHO. 2.Department of Health and Social Security (1979). Recommended Daily Amounts of Food Energy and Nutritients for Groups of People in the United Kingdom. London, HMSO.
3.National Advisory Commitee on Nutrition Education (1983). Proposals for Nutritional Guidelines for Health Education in Britain. London, Health Education Council.
4.Vaghefi, S.B., Makdani, D.D. and Mickelsen, O. (1974). 'Lysine supplementation of wheat proteins, a review', Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 27, 1231-1246.
5.Rose, W.C. and Wixom, R.L. (1955). 'The amino acid requirements of man. XIII The sparing effect of cystine on methionine requirement', J. Biol. Chem., 216, 763-773.
6.Lappe, F.M. (1976). Diet for a small planet. New York, Ballantine Books.
7.Kofranyi, E., Jekat, F. and Muller-Wecker, H. (1970). 'The minimum protein requirements of humans, tested with mixtures of whole egg plus potatoes and maize plus beans', Z. Physiol. Chem., 351, 1485-1493.
8.Clark, H.E., Malzer, J.L., Onderka, H.M., Howe, J.M. and Moon, W. (1973). 'Nitrogen balances of adult human subjects fed combinations of wheat, beans, corn, milk, and rice', Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 26, 702-706.
9.Edwards, C.H., Booker, L.K., Rumph, C.H., Wright, W.G. and Ganapathy, S.N. (1971). 'Utilisation of wheat by adult man; nitrogen metabolism, plasma amino acids and lipids', Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 24, 181-193.
10.Lee, C., Howe, J.M., Carlson, K. and Clark, H.E. (1971). 'Nitrogen retention of young men fed rice with or without supplementary chicken', Am. J. Clin. Nutr., 24, 318-323.
11.Kies, C., Williams, E. and Fox, H.M. (1965). 'Determination of first limiting nitrogenous factor in corn protein for nitrogen retention in human adults', J. Nutr., 86, 350-356.
12.Havala, S. and Dwyer, J. (1988). 'Position of the American Dietetic Association: vegetarian diets - technical support paper', J. Am. Diet. Assn., 88, 352-355.

Extracts from "Vegan Nutrition, a survey of research" by Gill Langley MA PhD
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-15-2005, 12:43 PM
Outlawmurray Outlawmurray is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 49
Default

Interesting stuff, but just as a rough guide, would it be safe to say i can up my supplement intake from 15g to 30g in a hit without wasting it, or storing it as unnessecary fat?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-15-2005, 12:49 PM
ChinPieceDave667's Avatar
ChinPieceDave667 ChinPieceDave667 is offline
Rank: Middleweight
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 7th layer.. or DC.
Posts: 2,329
Default

If by "up your suppliment intake" you mean eat more protein, then that's fine.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-15-2005, 12:55 PM
Outlawmurray Outlawmurray is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 49
Default

That is what i mean. Would it be an idea to take some other form of Amino Acids too, i've just about finished my creatine cycle, and not overly impressed, once again!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-15-2005, 01:00 PM
ChinPieceDave667's Avatar
ChinPieceDave667 ChinPieceDave667 is offline
Rank: Middleweight
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 7th layer.. or DC.
Posts: 2,329
Default

it's always ok
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-15-2005, 01:18 PM
Outlawmurray Outlawmurray is offline
Rank: New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 49
Default

And how often (in your opinion) would it be alright to take that without wasting it, two hours? More? Less?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-15-2005, 01:29 PM
ChinPieceDave667's Avatar
ChinPieceDave667 ChinPieceDave667 is offline
Rank: Middleweight
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: 7th layer.. or DC.
Posts: 2,329
Default

OK, I have a feeling that we might me misinterpreting what each other is saying. I would only take supplements that are specific to Amino Acids, (i.e., non-solid foods). 2-3 times a day, and you should be eating about 6 times a day. you need to eat solid food, chicken, steak, fish, nuts, even soy or tofu if your a vegetarian. All meats have Amino Acids in them. do a little more reading on this and other forums to get a better Idea about dieting.

Last edited by ChinPieceDave667; 12-15-2005 at 01:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  Bodybuilding.net - Bodybuilding Forum > Main Forums > Nutrition


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes



 



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 10:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.