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Hey hrdgain, doing good. Yeah, I've gotten some douchebag MD's too.

Let me play devil's advocate. Or at least balance the scales a bit.

Nothing much has changed since I was a kid. People complain about things until they NEED them. Then they forget they ever complained.

HGH is used by prescribtion. Manufactured by pharmaceutical companies for that purpose. Along with other steroids.

I notice nobody complains because it's illegal to sell prednisone on the street, lol. But if you'd ever needed some cheap old prednisone, you'd be thankfull it was there.

It's easier to be Tom Cruise when you have relatively few problems. That is not meant as any kind of aspersion toward you and the vit b thing, hrdgain, since I've read the vit b is closely linked to emotional health and can be affected by even marginal defenciencies. It's just that depression, for someone who's really had bad longterm clinical depression is not "being sad". You know what it's like a little bit so just imagine that it's possible to experience that x10 for years and years on end without a let up. Then ask yourself how you'd feel if a relatively cheap generic drug lifted you out of the hole you'd been in for years and helped you think rationally and deal with your problems. The arrogant asses who sit in judgement and coin terms like "prozac nation" defintely have a point sometimes but the answer is always in the middle. Anyone who always has to visit one fringe or another will never have any perspective. Anything can be overpresribed and I agree that is a huge problem. But for those who REALLY need it, don't judge.

NO offense to you guys but have you ever had a medication be the difference between living and dying for you? Or someone you love?

If you had a kid who had growing problems or puperty issues (not that I do) and that child was helped because a doctor was able to prescribe growth hormone (manufactured by a pharmaceutical comp.) you probably wouldn't complain about that. And I doubt you'd say, no, let me order some shit off the internet or buy it on the street and give that to the kid myself.

Or if you were really sick and a prednisone regimine made all the difference in your life...one of the CHEAPEST things you can get since it's available in generic for literally a few bucks.

Or chemotherapy.

And as far being depressed, it's easy to go all Tom Cruise about it until you've really experienced a long term debilating depression.

The fact is I don't appreciate some of the bullshit the pharmaceutical companies do. It ain't a perfect world. Of course they are profit driven. It's a profit driven world. But it's not a black a white world.

My son just had pneumonia. Fever of 107! Badly, acutely ill. Wen't to the doctor. Got some cultures. Some antibiotic....he's better. There was a time when his survival would not have been assured by a long shot. But nobody complains about it being illegal to get anibiotics without a scrip. Personally, I don't know how to extract the penicillin from some bread mold. Let alone the high tech targeted antibiotics we have today. So I was pretty happy they were available. They were WAY to expensive, even for generic, but I'd rather someone do it and make a profit then have a dead son. Not to be dramatic but that is the reality. People used to die everyday from shit we think nothing about.

Many peope on this country don't have any health insurance. Many of them can't afford the drugs they actually NEED. That's a big problem.

Hmmmm....we gladly go get our prescription filled when he have a sore throat or much worse but we complain that we can't get the things WE DON'T REALLY NEED. You ask me that's like standing in the cheese line complaining they don't hand out caviar.

If you really feel like drugs are evil then you shoud clean out your medicine cabinet. When you get athletes foot try one of those "alternative cures". Soak it in herbal tea or something.

I don't bother to type all this because I am personally offended by anything said only out of respect. To be honest sometimes I think people have begun to look at the world like a bad movie. Where there it is the good versus the evil and the good is all good and the evil is pure evil. Most of the time that is not the case. Most things are a mixed bag, IME.

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If you act sanctimonious I will just list out your logical fallacies until you get pissed off and spew blasphemous remarks.

Eric, I completely agree with what you've said, which makes me think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say, or perhaps I worded it incorrectly.

I am not anti-drug, or anything like that. If you are sick, or have a serious medical condition that needs prescription meds, there is no reason not to go down that road. There are a lot of problems with our health care system in the country, but by no means am i advocating going off all manufactured pharmaceuticals, far from it.

Especially when it comes to antidepressants, or antisychotics, no one in thier right mind would say that they shouldnt be available to those who need them. But (and this is a big but) if you could possibly take some vitamin b, for mild depression, anxiety, ect and not have to be all doped up all the time, I think thats a solution that deserves to be looked at, and given a chance. However, many doctors get kick backs for prescribing meds, especially expensive antidepressants, so they are quick to throw them at people. We have pills for everything these days, and I think it tends to get out of hand. That being said, there is still a chance I will explore that road if the vitamins dont pan out to be a long term solution.

There are no absolutes in any of this, the whole thing is grey IMO. There are those out there who will swear up and down that ADD doesnt exist, and that it is a ploy to sell drugs. I will say that there are definately a lot of misdiagnosed kids out there, but I've seen some who litterally cant function in society without medication for ADD, and at even at the age of 8, know that there is something wrong, and ask to be given thier meds so they can control themselves.

As far as the laws go though, in regard to steroids and GH, I dont see a point in having them scheduled, or any drugs for that matter. Its bullshit that a consenting adult, cant do a cycle if he feels like it. I know I wont win many friends like this, but i feel the same way about most drugs. Why is cocaine illegal? Why is weed illegal? Why can cops ticket me for not wearing a seatbelt? Why does the gov't feel it needs to protect us from ourselves? Its insanity, and its not what our gov't was set up for, they should be serving us, not the other way around.

Back on topic, I like vitamins

Eric, you always spark interesting conversation, I hope your son is recovering well, and will be ok very soon. now my hands hurt from all this typing, and I blame you hahah.

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I don't do this for my family, my friends, women, accolades, pride, or ego. I do it for me and no one else, its just part of who I am.

No, no, bro that's why I tried to point out that I new what you meant and also that this wasn't me responding personally to you or Talo. More of a general thing on the subject matter.

Of course I agree with you completely on what you said about depression and whatnot. But on reading that, I think also you may have be thinking that those today's drugs are like lithium. Far from it. For those who really need it, like we are saying, most of the common antidepressasnts have few if any side effects and what effects there are go away as the dosage is dialed in and you get used to it. The majority of people who benefit from them are not walking around feeling doped up.

I don't want this to be me defending drugs though . Just making a point.

I agree about doctors overprescribing anti-depressants. Frankly that happens a lot with GP's. And, to me, they have NO BUSINESS prescribing those types of drugs. They don't know enough about them or how to manage them...not to mention whether they will even take the time to manage them properly since most are completely overbooked. Only psychiatrists should be dealing that stuff, imo.

I take it you're talking about steroids and recreational drugs in regards to scheduling, lol, and not just any drug ever invented . Wouldn't want people to walk around willy-nilly self treating. They'd be dropping dead like flies. Some kid could slip my kid a mickey in the lunch room. I don't think most people should be allowed to drive a car, let alone get drugs.

It snowed like shit yesterday and the roads were as treacherous as I've ever seen them. But that didn't stop mister invincible in his SUV from tailgating me on a busy city road, and then, pass me on the double yellow so he could race though a yellow light. People are mostly stupid, bro. Far as I'm concerned, I'm glad that guy doesn't have easy access to cocoaine. He's a pepped up enough asshole as it is and again, my son was in the car. I have a profound desire to pound that guy to a pulp. I would have needed my seatbelt had he hit me and I damn sure was wearing it. He, on the other hand, would have been fine. Should I have to buy a tank I can't afford the gas far so I can be protected from fucking idiots? Hey, it ain't a perfect world but the government already "serves" guys like that enough, as far as I'm concerned.

Guess that doesn't win me any friends either .

^^ I completely disagree, that kind of thinking will win you friends like me

Your right, there are a lot of stupid people out there. and your correct I was reffering to recreational drugs. But with that, most people need to understand that a lot of recreational drugs, have very serious medical uses, and because of that stigma, cant be used by those who need them.

I dont have a problem with self medication, to a point. Should cancer patients be giving themselves chemo, of course not. But if you have chronic back pain, and decide that weed makes it feel better, then by all means go to town.

I know this will come off harsh, but with less regulation, the stupid people will die off more quickly ... population control is something we are lacking greatly. (ok, that was said in jest, dont go hating me now everybody)

Oh yeah, I was speaking more about self treating with prescriptions durgs not "herb" or "herbs"

Now, I don't mind the stupid people dying off more quickly I just don't want one of them to take me with him.

OK, I'm sorry for that Lord, that was completely uncalled for. In Jesus's name AMEN.



With this oversprescribing thing, you know, it's the doctor's job to prescribe, not the drug company. We can say the drug companies do this or that but we are supposed to feel secure in the knowledge that doctors are doing the right thing. That they aren't overprescribing, or mixing the wrong drugs, or any number of things. Most people, I agree, are simply over confident when it comes to the drug industry and the medical industry. You gotta get involved and be pro-active. But some of little things that we think nothing of BECAUSE of medicine used to be HUGE things. You gotta be damn thankful there is a Salk in the world, for instance, and we don't have to worry about contracting polio. I know my parent's parent's were. You always need to count your blessings.

i take vitamines b-12 complex and universal animal pack vitamines so its not a lack of that

I count things in this order, blessings, then dollars ... hahaha

As usual you make very good points eric. Salk was the man, who would have thought to prevent a disease, by giving people the disease ... amazing.

You know I think he's still living. I'm not sure.

I just looked it up, lol. He didn't invent the concept. Apparently the first vaccine to be called vaccination was the smallpox vaccine. They used the cowpox virus to inject in people. Apparently the cowpox virus doesn't make people sick but looks enough like smallpox that your body makes antibodies that will work against smallpox too. Cow in latin is vacca....I should have remembered that. 4 years of latin, lol. Pretty brilliant.

But then Salk was the first one to use killed virus to create a vaccine. Equally brilliant since there is not always a less virulent but similar form of a virus to be had.

Then you got Pasteur....

Heck, I have to get a flu shot every year and apparently they track the flu around the world (WHO or CDC or both?) so they can predict what flu strain will hit us and produce enough vaccine for that strain before it gets here. Dude, that is amazing shit.

Good thing this is open conversation

Then you got Pasteur....

Most problems can be traced back to some kind of vitaman or mineral defecincy.

Most?